.22 Rimfire in IDPA?

[Glock3422]

No, no, no, a thousand times NO!

But if you must-

All rules apply:

From concealment

Holster retention features must be used

Max of 18 required rounds in a stage

Steel must fall to score (Bring a bigger gun)

Activators not activated are the shooter's responsibility (Bring a bigger gun)

Shots out to 35 yards are encouraged

Min 125 PF

If you believe that a .22 is a full power self-defense round, I invite you to use a .22 pocket pistol on a standard IDPA COF.

See you at the range.

Steel Challenge is THAT WAY=======>

Now can we get back to serious matters?

Which major match has the best food?

[jar]

Most of the matches I've been to the average age is over 50 for IDPA. They are not getting the 20-30 year old crowd at all.

This depends greatly on where you are, and how your club runs. There are tons of 20-30 shooters at my clubs. Maybe a discussion of shooter demographics merits its own thread.

[freeidaho]

A .22 division will mirror real life more than you think. More 22s are used in defensive situations than any other caliber. Its availability is what makes it so popular.

Can you please site your source?

Thank you,

kr

[freeidaho]

Which major match has the best food?

That would be the Idaho State IDPA match, http://www.parmarng.org or most any match held on the Parma range where Grandma Goodfellow is in charge of the food.

kr

[Steve J]

It's too bad there's no way to tell who's voting in the poll and whether or not they even shoot IDPA.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I shoot IDPA and think it is a good idea to allow 22's Thanks, Eric

[Jane]

It's too bad there's no way to tell who's voting in the poll and whether or not they even shoot IDPA.

It's a "public" poll, Steve.

Click the "view" link next to each of the results.

[Steve J]

Thanks, Jane... I think. After checking them out, I now wish I hadn't.

[Forrest Halley]

As long as it has its own division why not? The age limit could even be dropped down to allow responsible children to shoot and enjoy themselves with the family instead of being stuck at the range watching everybody else go bang. If you had to modify or make allowances on the COF for the 22 division so be it. Folks are way to worried about their score and tiny little book covered in gun oil and powder residue. What ever happened to having fun at the match rain or shine win or lose? As for the .22 not being a defensive round in spirit or power factor....it beats throwing rocks or brass at the target...

[Steve J]

If you had to modify or make allowances on the COF for the 22 division so be it.

Ruin everyone else's match to make room for it. I think not.

Children are ready to participate in an IDPA match only when they can handle a full sized 9mm pistol and can safely negotiate the courses of fire no sooner. As far as adults wanting to shoot a .22 IDPA match, well that is just...

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: No one should download there ammo to minimum power factor and add all the new whiz/bang stuff to there pistols. We should use leather holsters and mag holders with a heavy canvas vest. (said in joke mode). Why not try it and see what happens. Getting more people out to shoot is what we want to do. If you get the kids out and interested you will soon get most of the family out to shoot. If they start with a 22--OK, they will soon be able to handle a larger caliber and will be safer for it. These are just my thoughts. Thanks, Eric

Edited May 12, 2010 by Aircooled6racer

[John Z Sr]

Hello: No one should download there ammo to minimum power factor and add all the new whiz/bang stuff to there pistols. We should use leather holsters and mag holders with a heavy canvas vest. (said in joke mode). Why not try it and see what happens. Getting more people out to shoot is what we want to do. If you get the kids out and interested you will soon get most of the family out to shoot. If they start with a 22--OK, they will soon be able to handle a larger caliber and will be safer for it. These are just my thoughts. Thanks, Eric

Very good point, how many shooters run a tricked out pistol to shoot faster, and then after the match, all the gear comes off and a J-frame slips in the back pocket or purse, just a thought

[freeidaho]

Howdy,

Serious question to everyone that voted yes.

What is the proposed solution to the .22LR round not being able to activate chargers, drop turners, swingers, etc. There are several of these in each of our matches, both local and State. It is an excellent way to allow a stage to be run at the shooters pace. A popper or steel plate is knocked over and pulls a cable that activates something else.

What is your plan to deal with this if a .22LR division is created?

Thanks for your replies,

kr

[Cy Soto]

Howdy,

Serious question to everyone that voted yes.

What is the proposed solution to the .22LR round not being able to activate chargers, drop turners, swingers, etc. There are several of these in each of our matches, both local and State. It is an excellent way to allow a stage to be run at the shooters pace. A popper or steel plate is knocked over and pulls a cable that activates something else.

What is your plan to deal with this if a .22LR division is created?

Thanks for your replies,

kr

I do a lot of practice with .22LR at my range and the only steel that I have a problem knocking down is the plates on the Texas Star. These plates sometimes require 2 or 3 hits to fall but they do eventually fall. If this was a match being shot with this small caliber, I'd just say: "shoot it until it falls" and no re-shoot for equipment malfunctions.

About a year ago I was at a USPSA match where we had a Jr in our squad shooting his Walther P22. At that particular match we had a few pieces of steel at several of the COF's but none that activated another target. We agreed that all the Jr had to do was ring the steel and it would be counted as a hit. Imagine our surprise when we saw that the bullets out of his .22LR pistol were knocking down every single popper. I should also add that this child was not shooting for score but, do you honestly believe he cared?!? He was having a blast nonetheless and he was being very safe with his gun-handling. I would be happy to have many more shooters such as this one in my squad every weekend!!

[DWFAN]

Howdy,

Serious question to everyone that voted yes.

What is the proposed solution to the .22LR round not being able to activate chargers, drop turners, swingers, etc. There are several of these in each of our matches, both local and State. It is an excellent way to allow a stage to be run at the shooters pace. A popper or steel plate is knocked over and pulls a cable that activates something else.

What is your plan to deal with this if a .22LR division is created?

Thanks for your replies,

kr

That one thing I do not know. I have not played with .22's and steel much, so I personally cannot give an informed suggestion or answer.

[Steve J]

Add .22 rimfire to BUG rules then do away with the BUG rules altogether.

[freeidaho]

I do a lot of practice with .22LR at my range and the only steel that I have a problem knocking down is the plates on the Texas Star. These plates sometimes require 2 or 3 hits to fall but they do eventually fall. If this was a match being shot with this small caliber, I'd just say: "shoot it until it falls" and no re-shoot for equipment malfunctions.

About a year ago I was at a USPSA match where we had a Jr in our squad shooting his Walther P22. At that particular match we had a few pieces of steel at several of the COF's but none that activated another target. We agreed that all the Jr had to do was ring the steel and it would be counted as a hit. Imagine our surprise when we saw that the bullets out of his .22LR pistol were knocking down every single popper. I should also add that this child was not shooting for score but, do you honestly believe he cared?!? He was having a blast nonetheless and he was being very safe with his gun-handling. I would be happy to have many more shooters such as this one in my squad every weekend!!

Cy,

Thanks for your reply. Given the number of angry posts about not calibrating steel for 38 special or 9mm on this and other forums, I'm thinking that isn't going to work in all cases.

I'm thinking that if this flies it needs to be seperate from normal IDPA matches, like Bug matches.... maybe. Or maybe the solution is to change the BUG rules to include commonly available 22 revolvers and semi-autos.

Thank you,

kr

[JorDanO]

There was a junior shooting a .22 at a local IDPA match a couple years ago. He didn't shoot for score, and if a piece of steel didn't fall he just moved on. He had a holster and reloaded as necessary. I think it's fine for local matches to allow a junior to shoot .22 for no score, but am against a formal division.

[Aglifter]

I think its an excellent idea - there is a great deal of carry-over between a 22 and a defensive cartridge, and it would be a great way to bring in college students, children, etc who either can't afford (or, hell, can't find) the ammo to shoot a defensive pistol.

Last year, I shot mostly my 357 Sig because it was the only caliber I had stockpiled - I couldn't find 9MM or 45 to shoot.

The "pop" guns won't take over - it's human nature to want to play w. the "cool" toys - I'm planning on jumping to open class in USPSA for that reason, but we need a means of introducing as many people as possible to the defensive use of weapons.

At least where I lived in TX, I could shoot an IDPA match Sat and Sun of every weekend - there may have been a steel challenge match once/month. I just shot my first steel challenge match last weekend, and it was fun, and I'll shoot more of them whenever I can, but its standing still, and shooting as fast as you can - it doesn't bear any relation to the defensive use of a firearm.

If you really want to make IDPA about "defensive" purposes, then you have to eliminate vests, give substantial penalties for, not only breaking cover, but printing, eliminate the over-all time component, and focus on how rapidly someone "stops" a threat once "exposed," and greatly reduce the "0" area to an actual vital shot, as well as greatly reduce the "1" area.

A agree activators, poppers, etc could be a problem (why would there be a Texas star in IDPA, if its about "defensive" use only?), but either the 22 shooters could just take a penalty, or, if the club wants to, put a second popper next to it, rated for 22.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Aglifter

[Cy Soto]

Cy,

Thanks for your reply. Given the number of angry posts about not calibrating steel for 38 special or 9mm on this and other forums, I'm thinking that isn't going to work in all cases.

I'm thinking that if this flies it needs to be seperate from normal IDPA matches, like Bug matches.... maybe. Or maybe the solution is to change the BUG rules to include commonly available 22 revolvers and semi-autos.

Thank you,

kr

You bring up a great point and I wholeheartedly agree that, to make this work, some changes need to take place. One possible solution is to have a separate squad in which all participants are shooting in the same division; in this case, .22LR. That, in itself, would not be a problem as the scores for this squad can be calculated separately and, if you believe these shooters many have a problem with some steel targets, you can leave it in the lowered position so that it is impossible to engage.

The real issue arises when dad or mom brings junior to shoot as part of this squad but they themselves want to shoot in the "main match" leaving their child (or children) under the supervision of another non-family-related adult. As an RO I could not accept responsibility for babysitting their children while they participate in an inherently dangerous activity.

Do I believe that mom and dad would leave their children unsupervised while they go shoot their match? I really cannot answer that question... I know that I would not do it myself but that doesn't mean that everyone agrees with me. If I had children and I wanted them to participate in this sport (while shooting in the .22LR division) I will have to forgo my needs and lookout for the best interest of my child. This means that, at best, I would be forcing myself to shoot a .22LR in the same squad as he or she is shooting.

There are some that may say "we can shoot it just like a BUG match which is shot after the main match has concluded"; but, let's be realistic, do we honestly believe that it is fair of us to have this child accompany us for the four hours that the main match may take so that he can shoot one or two stages. By that time this poor creature has been under the Sun for all these hours and it is probably real close to his lunch time. Having said that, it just dawned on me that young children don't have the attention span of some adults and, for them, four hours (even if they are shooting) can seem like an eternity.

In conclusion, I must give in to the fact that, under the current IDPA and/or USPSA rules, the addition of a .22LR division is not an easy task but, by the same token I am also happy that we are willing to entertain its possibility.

[ben b.]

No. Do not officially allow it.

I don't mind it if local matches let someone run one. We let a guy run an FN 5.7 pistol recently to try it out (jammed too much), and another guy runs a .380 that he carries as his work gun, and he shoots matches as practice rather than as a game, and his times reflect that.

I know the arguments for and against local "squishiness" on the rules. It is nice to be able to accomodate a "known" someone occasionally to try something out at a local match. The easiest way is to time them and score them for the info, but not not let their scores be entered.

[steel1212]

Howdy,

Serious question to everyone that voted yes.

What is the proposed solution to the .22LR round not being able to activate chargers, drop turners, swingers, etc. There are several of these in each of our matches, both local and State. It is an excellent way to allow a stage to be run at the shooters pace. A popper or steel plate is knocked over and pulls a cable that activates something else.

What is your plan to deal with this if a .22LR division is created?

Thanks for your replies,

kr

This is one of the issues I have with it. We run a lot of activators and steel at our matches. We also are required by our club to use forward falling poppers. Some of those stupid things have issues going down with 9mm heck some even with .45s, I don't think they will work with .22s. The other issue is how many holsters out there are made for a ruger, what about mag pouches? The final issue I have is Power, Accuracy, and Speed, we gonna go with 1 outta 3 ain't bad?

If you want to have a all paper .22 match then run a separate match but don't do it under the guise of IDPA or USPSA. Steel challenge is a good place for .22 as well.

[Steve J]

Hey. Let's go ahead and make room for airsoft and BB guns too. Maybe with our example a group can petition NASCAR to allow bumber cars in races for the same reasons cited in some of the posts.

[Cy Soto]

Hey. Let's go ahead and make room for airsoft and BB guns too. Maybe with our example a group can petition NASCAR to allow bumber cars in races for the same reasons cited in some of the posts.

I can't tell if you are trying to be funny or just plain ol' obnoxious but I for one wouldn't mind having a nearby indoor airsoft USPSA league a la AIPSC or AAPS.

Edited to add link: http://www.aaps-federation.org/index.html

Edited May 13, 2010 by Cy Soto

[Forrest Halley]

I still say we allow it in the spirit of promoting the shooting sports. If you don't want to share the sport with a good attitude why not find a lonesome gravel pit where you can be grumpy and impatient?

As far as the we've got whizbangs and whirlygigs that actuate off of steel...if they are in a different division just exempt them from being required to shoot same. Surely the time will be faster through the stage, but IDPA does not recognize uncategorized overall results, so surely your speedy11, wheelofortunate or combat tupperware score standing will be safe.

I am of the opinion that this .22 should be limited to juniors, new shooters and elderly shooters for enjoyment and learning. I am not interested in turning the proposed .22 division into its own equipment race with .22 uppers on centerfire frames and experienced highly competitive types.

Putting the .22 in the same match covers the supervision issues. As for putting it in the what you actually carry combined with reasonable defensive round counts division....that is purely a get out of my way I've got a big gun attitude that will disinterest a junior by making them wait around until there is no one to paste the the targets and no one to sing praises, make jokes and welcome them into the sport.

If they ever allow BB guns and airsoft they should be put in CDP and given caliber, round count and power factor waivers.