How Low Can You Go?

[walsh]

In a few threads it's been highly recommended to get a .22 conversion kit to practice with for cost cost as well as learning to pick up the sights for a newbie.

Right now I've got 9mm bullets in 115 FMJ and 147 FMJ to load with using either Clays or HP-38.

Has anyone ever seen it recommended to make super light loads and replace the recoil spring so the gun cycles? I dropped down to only 3.7 gr of HP-38 and only about 10 of 50 rds cycled and I had to rack the slide to get the brass to eject with the normal spring.

I don't wish to leave a round in the barrel, but can one drop a 115gr FMJ to 750 fps? And if you have tried it, are there any issues besides the recoil spring and has it ever been discussed as a training aid?

Thanks in advance,

Walsh

Edited April 9, 2010 by walsh

[Jake Di Vita]

Why would you want to do this?

[Merlin Orr]

The better objective might be to practice proper grip and recoil control......

[steel1212]

Most shoot .22 for cost. If all you have is a 9mm then load to PF and get recoil control practice while you train. If I had the funds all I would shoot would be a lot of 9mm to save wear and tear on the body and .40 as matches get close.

[walsh]

Why would you want to do this?

To be in-between the no-recoil of a .22 slide on my gun and full recoil. If people are loading to just barely make the PF, and newbies are having it suggested to use to work on form with a .22, wouldn't it make sense to work up to the PF level?

I used to play very competitive golf as I'm sure some others have too. There were many drills to work on timing and swing fundamentals. One, for example, was to take a 7 iron and take a 3/4 swing at the most, hold it at the top of the back swing, check your weight distribution and knee flex, and try to hit it only 100-110 yds and not 160-165 yds. The drill teaches control and feel. Also, if teaching a beginner you don't hand them a driver and tell them to try to hit it 300 yds. You put a 7 iron on a tee and have them make a 3/4 swing as smooth as they can.

So my question is if anyone has ever recommended working up to the PF by reducing the PF significantly.

Walsh

Edited April 9, 2010 by walsh

[Jeff686]

I think that before you get the bullet stuck in the barrell, you'll find that the brass doesn't seal well against the chamber wall and you'll get massive amounts of 'blow back' resulting in really dirty brass and nasty gunk all over the slide, chamber, magazine, and breech face.

[walsh]

I think that before you get the bullet stuck in the barrell, you'll find that the brass doesn't seal well against the chamber wall and you'll get massive amounts of 'blow back' resulting in really dirty brass and nasty gunk all over the slide, chamber, magazine, and breech face.

Well there are a few reasons!

Thanks,

Walsh

[Jake Di Vita]

I don't think there is any good physiological reason to do what you're suggesting. The difference being the golf swing is a much more physical movement than controlling recoil.

Recoil control only gets developed through the act of controlling recoil (novel thought right?).

Besides, there may be times in a golf match where you need to use a 70% swing. I doubt you'll ever use 70% PF loads in USPSA matches.

[walsh]

Okay...points all well taken....I won't run out 100 light rds tonight to see what happens. It only occurred to me as I accidentally loaded some 9mm with HP-38 .4 grains light and some rds didn't cycle the slide and the recoil was clearly reduced.

Thanks,

Walsh

[JimmyZip]

I think that before you get the bullet stuck in the barrell, you'll find that the brass doesn't seal well against the chamber wall and you'll get massive amounts of 'blow back' resulting in really dirty brass and nasty gunk all over the slide, chamber, magazine, and breech face.

This was what I was thinking. In my first time back reloading, I tried to find a super light load just to see what lowest charge would cycle my gun. I can't remember the weight, but I do remember this result as I got to where some wouldn't cycle the gun. Really dirty!

I see what you are getting at though. Just think there is a point of diminishing returns, and that this result would be your hinderence at lower power levels.

JZ

Edited April 9, 2010 by JimmyZip

[GrumpyOne]

And, if you did manage to get a load as light as what you would like it to be (and it wasn't dirty, etc.), even if it cycled the slide all the way to the rear, with the recoil spring so low in weight, I seriously doubt it would be able to strip a round off of a fully loaded mag, and continue on to battery. Load your mags up and just push them out with your thumb. The first are generally quite hard to push out in a fully loaded 15-21 round mag.

BTW, most people who are practicing with a 22 are doing so because they have a trigger control issue. 22's are perfect to practice your trigger control and/or flinch factor with. What is the use of practicing with your match gun, if you aren't shooting match ammo in it?

Edited April 9, 2010 by GrumpyOne

[calishootr]

lets not forget that in our game we also have to knock down steel poopers at various ranges that ARE calibrated to a certain PF...you go lower in PF you may have a tough time knocking them over, also as Jake pointed out. when are you ever gonna use 70 percent PF???

ill also throw this out, we shoot from a lot of 'compromised' positions where if your stance isnt as rigid as it could be, that gun wont cycle and now your dealing with clearing a jam instead of shooting

[BSeevers]

Theres another big issue. Bullets going too slow "bounce" back and do weird things fragging on steel. It dangerous.

PS there are a lot of hundred pound ladies that handle major just fine so just practice proper fundamaentals and you will be fine

[NuJudge]

If you're going to shoot light loads, use Lead bullets. The same powder charge will push them faster, and if you do stick one in a barrel they are much easier to push out.

Light bullets loaded light do make you lazy regarding recoil control, but they are very pleasant to shoot.

CDD

[ilvwhtgrls]

The better objective might be to practice proper grip and recoil control......

I agree, shooting a lighter load will just handicap you.

[gng4life]

Hi Walsh, I understand what you're getting at since I did this myself several years ago. I found the lightest springs I could get, used light bullets, and then loaded my rounds as low as I could go. I got some really wimpy rounds going downrange but had lots of problems also. Then there is the fact that was already mentioned about slow bullets hitting steel. In Steel Challenge, there is a rule about a round traveling at least 750fps and that's why it's there...slow bullets do not fragment well and can be extremely dangerous. Another thing I found is that if some powders are loaded too light, there can be a danger of it ignition problems.

I would just stick with the lightest loads (within manufacturer recommendations) you can cycle reliably and work your way up to your PF of your choice, making sure they are not moving less than 750fps. I've been there brother so hope this helps, take care...

[CocoBolo]

I would suggest that you concentrate on hits and not speed in the shots. The biggest part of shooting this sport is almost ignored. Elimite the pauses in shooting. Yep, its points per second when you are not shooting you are not making points, polish your foot work, perfect your positioning, learn to visualize pefect your stage plans all of thes things bring huge cuts in time, knocking .01 off you split does little. And to quote Mr. Enos break the shot when you see what you need to see and this also applies to the second shot on a target, referred to by some as double tap, well without seeing what you need to see its not going to be another A. Mr Enos also say recoil don't matter as log as it comes back to where it was. I tend ot agree with that theory since I can shoot my limited gun faster than my open gun, and the 40 does flip.

Speed comes from training your eyes and your brain to work faster and that takes a lot of repition.

[juan]

I agree with cocobolo

I worked hard to get my splits real low my shots sufferd, by waiting that extra 1/10 seeing what i needed to see,my time a little slower but my hit factor higher

when I looked at the scores, I was not losing to the big dogs by 2/10.

when i relized I could save mass amounts of time by positioning and not pull the trigger any faster my scores improved dramaticly