Help Adjusting To The Glock Trigger For Ipsc

[pwalker]

After a year of shooting IPSC with an STI open gun, I have decided to move into the Production division with a Glock 17. In IPSC rules, the trigger weight must be 5lbs or greater. The Glock trigger (Ghost 5lb Tactical connector) feels very heavy and spongey compared with the light, crisp trigger of the STI.

I have been practicing at the range and dry-firing the Glock but I have a problem. When I shoot fast, I pull the shots into the lower, right corner of the target.

This is not a flinch problem. I can slowly shoot 49 out of 50 rounds into the 8, 9 and 10 of a bullseye target at 25 meters.

But as soon as I turn on the timer and shoot faster in IPSC mode, the hits all start appearing towards the lower right corner. At 8 meters the hits are in the lower right A/C zones, at 15 meters the hits are in the lower right C/D zone and at 25 meters the hits are on the lower right edge of the target.

I think that the problem is worse on my second shot at the target.

Yes, I am trying to double-pull the trigger, but I do have problems doing this quickly.

Yes, I am holding the trigger back after each round and clicking-off the reset before the next shot.

Yes, I am seeing the sights lift.

I can fix the problem by aiming the sights at the upper-left corner of the target but this requires a different amount of adjustment depending on the target distance. I can not see that being a sustainable fix in the excitement of running a stage in a match.

So, I need to find a solution. I need to be able to aim at the center of a target, shoot quickly and know that the shot hit the target,

To date, I have fired 300 rounds looking for a solution.

Can anyone suggest some exercises or tips that might help me solve this problem quickly. First match of the year is one week away - meanwhile, when you are all pondering your answers, I will go back to the range and try again. Maybe the solution is just more firing until my trigger finger "gets it"....

Regards

Peter

[diehli]

Fire another 300 rounds... and another 300 rounds... and another 300 rounds, all while focusing on keeping the trigger pull smooth and not jerking the gun to the lower portion of the target. Slow down, feel and see what you need to. The speed that you have in Open will not be the same in Production: sights, trigger, etc. all combine to make it an entirely different beast. You just need to train with this beast more.

[ErikW]

dry fire

[Joe D]

Are you right or left handed?

[Vince Pinto]

Good question Joe, because lower-right usually means a flinching left-hander.

Peter, if you're right-handed, try pulling the trigger only with the tip of your forefinger (not the first knuckle) and really lock your left elbow.

[EricW]

[supreme Infidel Mode On]

To the annoyance of the other 5.999 billion residents of our solar system, I'm going to suggest that you......make your trigger heavier. And no, I'm not joking.

Try a 3.5 lb connector with and olive, New York 1 (NY1) spring. It will make your trigger roll over more like a revolver trigger and be a lot less spongy that the plain spring. As far as I know, I am one of two people in all of North America that like this combo - me and a GSSF armorer. It's all of a $2 experiment, by the way.

FWIW....

[back to Bible Thumpin' John Moses Browning Mode]

[Nik Habicht]

Eric,

I'm the third --- or fourth --- DT might be the third. I still prefer the light, gamey trigger but if I had to contend with the 5 lb. requirement --- it's what I'd install. It's also what's installed in my house guns...

[Nik Habicht]

Peter,

Erik hit it on the head ---especially if you're trying to just get used to the trigger --- dry-fire. This can be just watching television --- and clicking the trigger without looking at the sights. The trick, I think is to really feel the trigger....

Glock triggers also seem to get a bit smoother as they wear in...

[lndshrk]

Still sounds like too much finger on the trigger.

Also, I believe under IPSC rules you can change out the trigger as long as it is OEM. Glocks can come with either a "target" trigger or a "smooth" trigger. If you are shooting with the target trigger, it has ridges next to the safety that let you get too much finger wrap and therefore pull to the right at the break. Maybe try the smooth trigger, a $13.95 fix.

[Vince Pinto]

Try a 3.5 lb connector with and olive, New York 1 (NY1) spring.  It will make your trigger roll over more like a revolver trigger and be a lot less spongy that the plain spring.  As far as I know, I am one of two people in all of North America that like this combo - me and a GSSF armorer.

Ahhhhh-so, my young warrior,

The Secret Of The Trigger has already been revealed to you. All my Glocks use a "minus" connector with an NY1 trigger spring - it is way of the Jedi.

[EricW]

Ahhhhh-so, my young warrior,

The Secret Of The Trigger has already been revealed to you. All my Glocks use a "minus" connector with an NY1 trigger spring - it is way of the Jedi.

Just when I think I'm running with the dark side...

Clearly the "Jedi" trigger attracts only those of taste and refinement. Shall we start a mutual admiration society?

[pwalker]

Vince,

With the 3.5lb connector and the NY1 spring, does the Glock pass the 5lb trigger pull test? What is the actual trigger pull weight?

Regards

Peter

[pwalker]

Thanks for all the suggestions and tips.

I'll check out the trigger ideas. But I am sure that the problem and solution is in my index finger. To continue with the Jedi analogy, I need to find the force within me...

I do dry-fire a lot but I don't think that it helps much with this kind of "rapid fire" issue. I need to have the gun cycle itself while I prepare my trigger finger for the next shot.

But, the good news is that, 300 rounds later, I am getting closer to a solution with significant improvements in accuracy and speed.

I have to undo the open gun training and condition my trigger finger for the semi-double-pull required to control the Glock trigger at speed.

On Saturday, I had some success at the range by starting slow and then cranking up my speed in subsequent runs.

I reckon that, in another 200 or 300 rounds I'll be ready for my first production division IPSC match.

I wonder what will happen when (if) I go back to my open gun....

Regards

Peter

[Nik Habicht]

Peter,

I've had some success in dryfiring by holding the trigger to the rear and cycling the slide --- then releasing the trigger and pulling through for the next shot...

[ErikW]

What Nik said is very important. You need to learn how to ride the trigger and let it forward only enough to reset, not let it fully forward. Then you don't have to deal with the slack before the stiffer pull.

(Don't anybody tell me Sevigny or so-and-so doesn't do this so it's an inferior technique. I don't doubt there are some good Glock shooters who let fully off the trigger. I'm just a big advocate of riding it and doing the minimal reset thing.)

[Nik Habicht]

Expanding on what I wrote briefly as I was heading to bed: While I mostly shoot Glocks, I occasionally strap on a 1911 for a month or so --- until I miss the plastic fantastic. Whenever I change, I find it beneficial to just play with the trigger of the gun --- to do lots of fire, hold, cycle the slide, let the trigger forward to reset, fire, cycle...etc. I do this with both hands --- and find that it pays dividends in both dry-fire and practice.

Warning: If you're doing it in front of the TV, others living in the house might be annoyed at the noise if they're trying to watch whatever's on the idiot box...

[EricW]

I'll check out the trigger ideas.  But I am sure that the problem and solution is in my index finger.  To continue with the Jedi analogy, I need to find the force within me...

In another statement that will get me burned at the stake for blasphemy, I will suggest that you may need *more* of your finger on the trigger. I had similar problems and found that if I rotated my hand around a bit so that I was pulling the trigger more with my first knuckle, that I had much better trigger control - and consequently - sight alignment control. The extra leverage allows you to pull the Glock trigger without disturbing the gun. I use exactly the same technique at 5 yards as 50 and my sight picture is always rock-solid.

The Glock is kind of a different animal, trying to finesse the gun like a 1911 isn't going to get you anywhere. Running a Glock is a lot like driving a truck. You have to firmly plant your paws at the 10 and 2 positions and *drive* that sucker where you want to go.

[sfinney]

Another statement that may annoy many.....

(don't take this wrong, I actually like Glocks, this is not Glock bashing!)

But, some people never seem to "get" a Glock trigger. If after several hundred (or thousand!) rounds you are still struggling mightily with it, and you still plan to concurrently shoot a 1911 type gun at all, its going to be difficult to get 100% comfortable with tupperware.

Note I said difficult, not impossible. If you spend enough time shooting the Glock, you'll eventually get it, more than likely. But why put yourself in the situation - try a Springfield XD, or Para LDA, or.... whatever til you find something that you like, and don't have to totally retrain your shooting for.

Unless you're just in it for the challenge, and growth

[Nik Habicht]

Unless you're just in it for the challenge, and growth

Or you really like Glocks....

[ErikW]

Seeing the subtitle again, "Pulling fast shots to the lower right," reinforces my belief it's all about tension. What's the difference between slow shots and fast shots? Tension. It's not just the Vulcan Death Grip on the gun, it's your entire body tension. Relax.

[Jake Di Vita]

It's not just the Vulcan Death Grip on the gun, it's your entire body tension. Relax.

That is huge.

[Vince Pinto]

Peter,

With the 3.5lb connector and the NY1 spring, does the Glock pass the 5lb trigger pull test?  What is the actual trigger pull weight?

Sorry for the slow response - I forgot to track this thread. My G21 which I use in IPSC Production Division has the standard trigger spring and connector and it breaks at about 5.5lbs.

I use the "Minus" connector and NY1 trigger sping on my other Glocks for carry. I've never measured those trigger pulls though, but they have a crispy less "spongy" feel.

[Flexmoney]

Glockmeister has posted the trigger pull weights with various configurations.

Here is a link to the info:

http://glockmeister.com/triggers.shtml

[EricW]

Gotta say, I agree with the Glockmeister. That Duane feller never has been a reliable source of information.

[pwalker]

Thanks for all the input and advice.

Eventually I solved the problem by applying a number of the techniques discussed here:

I did enough dry-firing to create blisters on my slide racking fingers;

I went to the range several times and fired lots of rounds, focusing on my finger action, especially around the trigger reset;

I intermingled some dummy rounds into my mags and monitired my hand movement when the dummy caused the gun to not fire; and

I did a series of Bill Drills, starting very slow but gaining speed on each run.

All that practice helped build my confidence and reduced the tension.

Last weekend I shot my first match in Production division with the Glock. Only screwed up once when, in the excitement of a long-distance stage, I forget that I was not shooting an open gun. I missed the first 6 shots and then said "F...ing trigger" out loud and got myself back under control enough to finish the stage, albeit with a very low result on that stage.

The Glock passed the 5lb trigger pull test, with a bit to spare so I am going to do a bit more polishing...

Thanks for all your help.

Regards

Peter