Larrys1911 Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Larry:If you are thumping on Master class Open and Limited shooters with your Production gun maybe you need to give some thought to joining USPSA. Nothing wrong with crossing over into another discipline and stealing all the cookies. Ron, I WISH. I havent shot but two matches in the last 4 months due to my new addition to the family "Super Duper Pooper" Or SDP I aint "Thumping" NOBODY right now. Last IPSC match I shot I was actually embarrassed when the scores came out. Matts probably right for most of them they get keyed up about it and like I said I am not a member so I dont care if I do well or not. Sometimes thats a good thing. I am going to join but there is no reason to right now. No time! WAIT you guys have Cookies?????? Larry P Oh and Matt, when I get back in seriously, Im comin for you Bud!!!!!! We do need to put some rounds downrange again soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 So sorry, I guess the word "solved" was too strong. It did however make people shoot the classifier within the last year. If you don't move up, you still had to have had the card signed to show that the classifier was shot. If someone wants to sign their own card.... we'll I don't think I even have to voice my opinion on that one. C Simms, There is nothing in the Rule book to back any of that up. I honestly dont have a problem with it as long as "everyone" knew up front, and from what I understood some didnt. Having your card signed when you do not move up is not done around here, nor is it normally done anywhere that I know of. If it was HQ would have to send out more cards. Some shoot the classifier quite a few times/year. I used to. The point I was making is that freakin card doesnt mean anything when it comes down to brass tacks. If someone wants to tank a classifier it aint hard, the card gets signed and they are still sandbagging. There is another problem. Many people are seen as sandbagging the classifier but they blow the last stage. 1/3 of the classifier is done at over 15 yds and most of it at 20yds, when was the last time you shot a match that had 1/3 of the rounds fired at that distance. Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I admit to "not trying very hard" the last couple of times I shot the classifier match. Given the way the local matches are designed, there's no point in me being anything higher than marksman. I'm usually at the bottom of the CDP pile regardless of classification, so I feel no guilt about managing my results on the classifier. We have another club in action now, though, so that may change. If I do consistently better, I will reevaluate and take appropriate actions to make my classification commensurate with my ability to perform in the actual matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scandog Posted February 29, 2004 Share Posted February 29, 2004 Rhino, Your last post along with many of the others show that there is no incentive to shoot the classifier to the best of your ability. It is nothing against you, it is just the way IDPA is set up. The other side of this is you can do good on the classifier and then put yourself in a class you can't compete in. I have seen both. I have shooters that moved up to SSP SS that should be shooting MM. I also have shooters shooting MM that should be EX. I wish I had the answer to this problem, but I don't. Any time you leave something like the classifier up to the shooters, there are going to be those that will use it to their advantage. Some try hard for the bragging rights and others lay off just to win. I have heard the same problems with IPSC and their system. It would be great if the MD had a little more say in this. Of course they could also abuse this. But think about it. You have a MM or Novice that is beating your experts by 10 to 15 seconds. Move them up to Expert. It would be hard to do with shooters that only make it to one match, but for those who do it month after month in local matches, and we all know who they are, bump them. It is a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scandog Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 C Sims, This issue cam up recently in a conversation I had with another shooter. What did you do if an expert only shot SS? Did you allow them to move down? I thought we didn't need to get our card signed unless we moved up. We don't see how your solution would solve the problem of laying off on a classifier. We were actually thinking it might make it worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 To all who posted about sandbagging the classifier. Why would anyone want to do that, who wants to become National Novice champ? Hell, not me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 Although I'm never going to shoot in the IDPA nationals, that's a good point. I'll probably be shooting the classifier this year some time, and I'll see what I can do. Heh ... I'm going to feel like a moron if I do my best and still end up as a Marksman. On the other hand, I will prove I'm not sandbaggy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayonaise Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 To all who posted about sandbagging the classifier. Why would anyone want to do that, who wants to become National Novice champ? Hell, not me... Tightloop, I'm with you! I just don't understand people who tank anything. Everytime I shoot the classifier or a match I try my best. I absolutely do not understand the mentality of an MA, EX or SS level shooter sandbagging for bragging rights or a trophy in a class lower than their ability. There's only one word for that, Pathetic. Who do they think they are kidding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 I did not mean to come on that strongly, but for the life of me I cannot see how having different classes of shooters does anything BUT encourage sandbagging. If everyone shot heads up, you would certainly know where you finished in the big scheme of things and there would be no incentive to shoot just well enough to win 1st SS or 1st Marksman. It is kind of like the Liberals telling an unwed crack mom that it is ok that she has a problem but we will pay you to stay on your porch and drink beer instead of getting out and busting your hump like real folks do. When I say I want to see my name at the top of the page, I don't mean the top of the Expert page or the Novice page, not even at the top of the Master page (I am a Master classification with 3 guns), but I mean ALL the pages, HOA. I won't flog this dead horse much longer 'cause we have covered this topic at length in past threads, but if you are not trying to climb out of the pack, no matter what classification you now belong to, you are wasting your own time, my time, and taking up oxygen that could be used by someone who is really trying. My .02 worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scandog Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 It is too bad not everyone feels like you three do. I am just shooting expert, but when I shoot, I want to beat everyone there. I don't care if they are master or novice. If all shooters felt that way, we whould not even be having this discusion. Multiple levels are good for bringing in new shooters and trying to level the playing field. They only have to compete against shooters of their own ability. most of the time. I was talking with snokid last night about this. We started looking at what would happen if you had to shoot the classifier every year. Would you get to move down if you shot it i a slower time? If not, why shoot it more than one time. In my case,I wat to beat everyone. If I am novice or expert it wouldn't matter. I look at all of the scores to see where I placed. Don't get me wrong, I like my expert ribbons. I still think at some point in time you have to give the AC or someone the ability to move shooters or go to a national database. require classifier stages i matches and rank everyone against everyone. The top x% are masters. The next X% are experts and work your way down. I know this is the way IPSC and USPSA do it, but it seems to work. as for my classification, I may make master this year. Then when I get spanked at matches it will by the top shooters. I don't thik there are any sandbaggers in Master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Sims Posted March 2, 2004 Author Share Posted March 2, 2004 scandog, I'm sorry, maybe I mislead you. I'm not affiliated with the WV match, wasn't able to shoot it in 03, did shoot it in 02. I was just passing along what they did in 03. You are correct, as far as what I think HQ wants, when it comes to only getting the card signed when you move up. The MD's of the WV just chose to make it a match rule that their was a recent classifier shot, which IMO was a good move. Did it solve the "problem"?, sort of. Did it change the problem? No. "We" are all going to play the shooting games how we want to, some to win, some to shoot, some for fun, and some to just see where we fall. Is it better to be 1st MM or 3rd SS? It would probably depend if the shooter is a first year shooter or a 5th year shooter. Just my opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 The MD's of the WV just chose to make it a match rule that their was a recent classifier shot, which IMO was a good move. There's a single club shooting matches in N.J. --- on a day and time when I need to be at work. The same is true for the two matches in Bucks County, PA that are less than an hour away. I started action pistol shooting with IDPA and I'm in my fifth year of IDPA membership, and have just come back from my fourth Winter Nationals at S&W. I haven't shot the classifier in at least two years. Last year I shot the Winter Nationals well enough to finish second in my class, this year I tanked bad --- and will I assume finish somewhere middle to bottom of my class. I'd shoot more local matches if I could. How is this policy possibly good for retaining me as an IDPA member? Tell me that that's a requirement for every major IDPA match and I have to drop out of this sport --- which still occupies a really fond place in my heart, for it's where I started to learn how to shoot. It provided the confidence that I could try Glock matches and it led me to my first USPSA match which led to Steel Challenge type matches, which led to NRA Action Pistol matches. As long as there are classifications there will be people who manipulate those. This policy does nothing to discourage it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Sims Posted March 2, 2004 Author Share Posted March 2, 2004 Nik, congrats on being able to shoot 4 Winter Nats and sorry that you are unable to shoot the more club matches. I'm sorry that there aren't more local clubs for you to shoot at. I think HQ likes to see the clubs shoot the classifiers at least once a year but if you can't make it then just keep shooting the big matches. More shooting the better! good luck to you.! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scandog Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Nik, The MD's of WV made up their own rule and I think if it would have been chalenged, HQ would have over ruled it. I don't agree with what they did. As for you being able to shoot the classifier, currently there is nothing saying you have to ever shoot it again. If you would like to shoot it and possibly move up a class, I would talk to someone at your local club. I know I will set up and let people run the classifier at special times if they want to. we also run the classifier the first Wednesday of every month. We shoot every Wednesday night for practice and the classifier night pulls the most shooters. The bottom line is for now it is up to you. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 In regards to sandbagging, it's not just in IDPA, it also very predominate in USPSA. At many matches in our area, we would see a B class open shooter come up to a classifier, shoot it blazingly fast with good hits, and stop with one round left to fire, wait 3 seconds, and fire the last shot. No one ever said anything. Unfortunately, unless the organizations allow match directors to assign an on the spot classification when they see this kind of activity, it's not going to stop. In regards to shooting "heads up", not a good idea. We need classifications just as NHRA, BPA Bowling, and other activites do to provide persons of different skill levels a chance to compete against others at their skill level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 "we need classifications..." That is only your opinion. What happened to only the strong survive? Do we have to make it so easy that everyone "feels" good when they leave? What happened to knowing you did your best and that would be good enough to satisfy yourself even if you did not win. There isn't any reason that everyone has to be allowed to compete against everyone else, dependent on classifications. There is a peck order on the farm, and in all sports, from washers to drag racing. Best at the top and the rest down from that. If you wanted to be the best all you need to do is work hard and keep after it. I'll stop now, it is obvious that I don't hold the modern values and ideas about making it so everyone looks and feels good. There are winners and loosers, it is up to you to decide which you want to be, then do something about it. And about sandbagging in USPSA, public embarassment goes a long way toward discouraging that kind of thing. No one tolerated a card sharp in the old days, no need to tolerate a sandbagger today... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPSCDRL Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 In regards to sandbagging, it's not just in IDPA, it also very predominate in USPSA. At many matches in our area, we would see a B class open shooter come up to a classifier, shoot it blazingly fast with good hits, and stop with one round left to fire, wait 3 seconds, and fire the last shot. No one ever said anything. And this person was not ostracized by the real competitors? Amazing and sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 IPSCDRL Asked to leave the match and never come back is more like it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 I've been watching this classification discussion for some time. I've also watched how this plays out in our club. I really don't see a whole lot of sandbagging (yet). What I have seen is that new shooters seem to be terrified of being in anyway judged with more experienced shooters. It is actually a selling point of getting new people into the sport when we can show them that they are not necessarily "ranked" with everyone else. Infact, we found it very helpful to have the sheets separate. We show all the novices on one sheet, and group them by division instead of showing all the members of a division on a sheet, grouped by classification. People like to see that they have a "chance" so this type of scoring makes them feel good. As long as we have to market our sport and are trying to get more people in, we have to make them "feel good". This is even more necessary these days because people are trained from birth by school and marketing that they "should" feel good about what they are doing. As far as the sandbagging, I think there's only one way to handle it - have 2 classess in the national matches, pro and amature. Put a pretty good pot-o-gold up for winning. We might think about modeling things after (gasp) golf. The other way to handle it is to not keep score!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 GGeek It takes all kinds of folks. We can agree to disagree. Tloop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullautodave Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 I got an idea, why not if your going to have a match with say 80 shooters, IDPA, USPSA, or whatever, just make everybody show up the day before or early in the same day and qualify? The fastest ( highest scores ) get to shoot the match and the rest get to watch. No more, or at least less, sandbagging. No classes. If I was the 81st shooter to show up, then next week I would practice. By default, everyone would get better, and is that not what every club's charter claims? We want to make you a better shooter. I know, I know that would mean the same fast guys would go to the prize table every week. But that should be the way it is anyhow. Reward hard work and accomplishments, not mediocrity. Sarcastic mode now off Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 I think the problem is that hard work and accomplishments take time. It took me years to make M. Along the way it sure was nice to see how I was doing. If you always shoot against the same people and they never change in skill level, it's easy to check. Otherwise, you need a yardstick to see just how deep the hole you're in is. That's the point of classifications. Given shooters of unknown ability, you get a common reference point. If you just compare to the other shooters at the match, you have no idea where you stand outside that group. If the top shooter is national GM caliber, a 95% second place is pretty good. If they're nationally B-class, a 95% second place of isn't quite as much of an accomplishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 TL: It doesn't really take all kinds. We just got all kinds! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 This thread looks like it's drifted quite a bit from the original topic so I'm gonna close it. If you'd like to continue the sandbagging/grandbagging/classification discussion please feel free to start another thread. If I get some time this weekend, I'll try to separate this out into two separate threads.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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