I'M NOT SANDBAGGING

[joshua]

I've been shooting IPSC on and off for the past 10 years now and I can't get out of class B, BUT I usually place within the M class of shooters in most clubs.  What is wrong with me?  I've won B class in some not so big matches where I even beat A class, but I still can't get out of that 74%.  Sometimes my classifiers are so pathetic that I just barely make C class in the percentage.  I don't want to say the classifiers aren't accurate but what am I doing wrong?  I really want to get my M card, heck I'll take a GM card but I just can't shoot those classifiers high enough.  Do you think there are too many that are Grand bagging, just shooting the classifier over and over at warp speed just to get a hail mary grand master score? josh

[Flexmoney]

Many classifiers test strong/weak hand shooting, require standing reloads, and are shot from one position.  Many matches put more weight on field courses.

For example, I am a lot better at shoot-then-scoot than I am at shooting weak-hand.

[Steve Anderson]

I'm the opposite of Kyle. I do well standing and shooting, am still working on movement.

Course, I did find out he's an ex track star....

After my first major match, I'm convinced that classifiers don't mean dinky-doo about big match performance.

SA

[Chriss Grube]

Classifiers are a nice little test of one or two skills each, the big matches show how you can put everything together. There are a lot of people that are grandbagging, either that or I'm way behind on the classifiers. I think unless you really tank a classifier with a malfunction or a total meltdown don't reshoot it. It is a on demand test. I see a bunch of people that shoot the damn thing 6-10 times then send in the best. They are also the ones going to a big match and getting beat by 90% of the c shooters.

[joshua]

Now I don't feel too bad, everytime I come up to get my B plaque someone will always make a comment of me sandbagging.  I really do try to shoot those classifiers with all my skills but darn thing barely makes B class. josh

[Duane Thomas]

I actually wrote an article on how grandbagging is okay. Published in Front Sight. Since then I've modified my position somewhat. I'll still argue that grandbaggers are hurting themselves more than anyone else, but I've decided to no longer shoot classifiers more than once. Right now, of my six current classifiers, only the two oldest were shot more than once, and they'll fall off before I move up. I like that. Shooting the classifiers once makes the challenge greater. And when I do get my Master card, I don't want anyone saying I got it through grandbagging.

'Course sometimes it's difficult to hold to that resolve. Last weekend the classifier was Speed-E Standards. I really wanted a Master score on that one. I knew that to get a Master score, basically I had to drop no more than about 5 points and do it in less than 10 seconds. The timer sounds, I'm whipping along, it feels GOOD, the hits are there, the speed's where it needs to be. Finally, on the LAST shot on the last target, I miss the entire target. My score was 12 As, five Cs, and one MISS in 9.81 seconds. Turned what would have been an 85-something classifier into a 52-something. So frickin' CLOSE, and then at the last opportunity you blow it! Now at times like that you get really tempted to do it over again. But I was strong; I was....unbreakable. I walked away. But I was one unhappy camper, let me tell you that, sports fans.

[Ron Ankeny]

I have never been to a major match but I have been to dozens of club matches in several different areas. In all cases, the club matches (including field courses) are dominated by the higher class shooters.

Around here, we have a couple of  M shooters, a few A shooters, several B shooters and lots of C shooters. The order of finish through the course of an entire match is almost always M, A, B, and C-D. There is a very strong relationship between class and order of finish.

I guess you (Joshua) are an exception to the rule. Unfortunately, B class has a long lived reputation of being a hang out for sandbaggers. I guess you either need to get some thick skin or move up. The choice is yours.

Duane:

I too have stopped reshooting classifiers unless there is a compelling reason to do so like a malfunction. An "honest shooter"  will get to the same place shooting cold and demand, it just takes a little longer.

[Bill Schwab]

I am a C class shooter, one of the top in the country, and people laugh at matches when they see my classification because at major matches I regularly beat most, if not all, of the A class Limited 10 shooters.

I believe the reasons for my low classification are:

a) I shoot few classifiers due to my location and family needs

I suck weak hand

c) I seem to regularly bung up my reload on classifiers due to nervousness

I too am often labeled a sandbagger, but those who know me know that all I want in the world is a piece of paper saying I'm a M or GM....

What's funny about it all is that I don't consider myself good at movement  

A-44903

Bill

[Ron Ankeny]

Bill and Joshua:

Have you guys consider entering matches in a higher classification? Afterall, if you are dominating your class, why not jump into a bigger pond?

I have entered in higher classifications (in other shooting disciplines) and it sure shuts folks up. It also gives a guy a warm fuzzy all over when you do well where you belong. Just a thought.

(Edited by Ron Ankeny at 6:22 pm on Sep. 29, 2002)

[Chriss Grube]

Ron,

I think the problem is too many overclassed shooters. Look at any big match and 99% of the GM's, M etc. shoot a percentage at least 1 or 2 classes lower. As I said earlier it is easy to reshoot the classifier until you get a keeper, backing it up at the big game is a whole hell of a lot harder. I don't know about the shooters in your neck of the woods but out here in A8 we have some damn good shooters. There are a lot of A and B class shooters that can give the M's and GM's a good run for there money on any given day. The classifier system is an ok gauge to use but it all comes down to putting  and holding it all together at the big ones.

[Bill Schwab]

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Have you guys consider entering matches in a higher classification? Afterall, if you are dominating your class, why not jump into a bigger pond?

I have entered in higher classifications (in other shooting disciplines) and it sure shuts folks up. It also gives a guy a warm fuzzy all over when you do well where you belong. Just a thought.

---

I honestly didn't know that was an option in this game....I'll have to try that.

[Ron Ankeny]

I have been pondering the classification system in general. I think it is a decent measure in our neck of the woods because we shoot a lot of them. That is, I shoot about 4 of the classifier specials each year. In addition, our bays are small and our props are limited. We do a lot of speed shoots and shooting from boxes. In other words, what we do in matches is very similar to what you see in classifiers.

On the flip side, not unlike the rest of the country, we are moving away from boxes and more into shooting areas. I have noticed that when we knock ourselves out on good course design, some of the more athletic and experienced shooters do indeed beat guys who do better on classifiers.  As I look back over the results from the entire summer, I noticed I have won about 90 per cent of the classifier stages in club matches, but only about 70 per cent of the longer field courses. That's kind of interesting in itself.

[vluc]

I do far better on a complete cof than I do on any single classifier.  Jokingly called a sandbagger, but not by design.  I do much better on a large stage than a stand and shoot...which is what most classifiers are.

[Chuck D]

For some reason i tend to do better on classifiers than I do on long field courses. I think the problem lies in that classifiers are nothing like the type of shooting you would normally perform in matches. It took me a long time to leave B class. I started turning in better classifiers when I didn't get so nervous before shooting them. I was also trying WAY too hard to be perfect.

[joshua]

I have competed in a major match one step above my real classification.  The match director asked me if I was nuts, I told him I won B class at the last match so he said, "Go for it then!" Would you believe I had the worst gun malfunction and still placed 4th in A class?  Was I disappointed that I didn't win a SVI frame because I didn't come in third in that class? Nope, I settled for the Para frame.  I have emailed USPSA requesting a bump up to A but they said I still didn't make the 75% of the match winner.  Go figure my gun jammed 3 times.  Anyway, I figured if I can still hold it together at a big match then I will get bumped up.  Yes I'm learning to have thicker skin since I have no choice but to have crocodile skin.  Seriously thinking about shooting classifiers multiple times until I get the score I want if that's what it takes.  So if you see a B class shooter ranging with high As and low Ms, don't boo-it might be me. =) josh

[ErikW]

I think entering a class other than your actual class is incorrect and unethical. EZWinScore should use your correct class anyway.

If I had pretended to be a GM (and the organizers pretended along with me) at my section match this year, I could have won a slot to the nationals next year, taking it away from the guy who earned his GM classification and was first GM in the match.

If you want to impress people or silence your detractors, win the overall.

[joshua]

Erik, that's what I'm shooting for.  I can dream can't I? josh

[Ron Ankeny]

Erik:

My remarks were about entering a class that reflects your known ability if you are honestly placed in the wrong class. The conversation is not about manipulating the system to take advantage of others.  I once had a brief window of opportunity where I could have entered the Colorado State Championship as a C class shooter in L10 even though I was moving up to a solid A in Limited the next time the classification was run. Would it be ethical for me to enter the match 2 classes below my known ability? I didn't do it, but I guess you would have? Different strokes...

(Edited by Ron Ankeny at 1:56 pm on Oct. 8, 2002)

[vluc]

Now doesn't that beggar the question of the Limited A or B class shooter who decides to shoot production or L10 and comes in at a U or even a C-D level when they do the classifiers?

Are they truly that class or are they A/B?  If the classifier itself is to tell the tale, they may come out at the lower level, yet in a COF may run it in an outstanding fashion, smoking the folks in the prod or L10 group.

[Ron Ankeny]

vluc:

As you know, USPSA won't let you shoot more than one class lower than your highest classification in another division. In my case, I was moving up, but the scores hadn't been ran so I had a small window of time that I could have abused. I was just yanking Erik's chain because I know he isn't the kind of guy who would purposely manipulate the system in order to shoot lower than his ability.

I have a question (thread drift) about unclassified shooters. As an old revolver shooter, could I go to a big match and shoot as an unclassified shooter or do they put unclassified shooters in with Masters? In PPC you shoot Master until you are classified.

[ErikW]

Known ability, ha! All that matters is the classification  USPSA assigns you. If you knowingly enter a different class, you're not playing by the rules.

[Detlef]

yes. Think you're classed too low or too high? Get over it! There is, however, a provision by which you can ask to be moved up or down in class. I think it goes to your Sec Coord first, and then someone will decide based on merit. Look at uspsa.org to see the details. But *you* (!) are never allowed to move yourself up or down in class, neither is a match director.

--Detlef

[Ron Ankeny]

I was wrong, these guys would take advantage of the system to gain an advantage. Ethics, a sense of decency, and fairplay have no business in this game. All that matters is legalistic thinking and/or clever manipulation. Sniffle, I am dissappointed...  As for the rules, sure we gotta play by them. If there is no provision for entering in a higher class, then so be it.

Truth be known, it wasn't until recently that I realized how important a classification system is in order to attract new shooters and to see the sport grow. My personal belief is there should be no classification system at all, only divisions. Awards should go by order of finish, period. Too bad that philosophy isn't practical...

[Flexmoney]

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Awards should go by order of finish, period.

---

Yeah...I am in that camp.  As a matter of fact, I don't even see a need for a prize table.  Without such, none of this would matter.  I'd like us to use the classification system as a measuring stick of our progress (or lack there of), not a means of distributing prizes.

[joshua]

The first time I shot IPSC I was very disgusted due to the gaming nature of most shooters.  At the time of the equipment race those P9s with hi cap mags were kicking butts and my single stack comp gun couldn't compete.  Now the table is even as long as you have the money to burn on those hi cap comped hud targeting open guns.  What I really don't understand is for stage designers leaving too much for gaming, such as 6 targets to be engage at 50 yards free style through barrel then run to 25 yards engage strong hand only, then rush to 5 yards engage weak hand only.  The stage winner shot 12 hail mary rounds as fast as he could through the barrel at 50 yards, then at 25 yards more hail mary shots as fast as hummingbird beats it's wings, then another hail mary weak hand shots at 5 yards as fast as 22-250 bullet arrives at 300 yards, then he made a reload and engage all 6 targets again just to make sure he had 6 holes on each target.  There was nothing in the procedure saying he couldn't do that.  What a gamer man, that's how most competitive shooters would shoot it.  I could not believe how much brass was piling up at the 5 yard box with just our squad.  I shot it with ethics and I placed 70% of the stage winner.  Sometimes you got to choose between ethics or fall behind.  If I would have known a stage like that exist, I would've brought more rounds. josh