Super Squad Routine at Steel Challenge

[mhs]

My sole purpose in starting this thread was to discuss and ultimately determine whether or not the described practice conformed to USPSA rules.

And that's irrelevant -- since the Steel Challenge uses its own rules, not the USPSA rules......

If USPSA were to acquire ICORE, SASS, IDPA, or GSSF, I'd expect those sport to run under their own rulebooks too.....

It won't be irrelevant when this "routine" shows up at a USPSA match.

Should we wait?

I'd rather try and figure it out now.

To make it clear:

In a USPSA match, at MR, a shooter puts a loaded mag in his gun, slide down, chamber empty, cocks the gun and dry-fires it at a target. Did he do anything against the rules?

Or:

In a USPSA match, during a COF, shooter does a static reload, finger out of the trigger guard until the mag is seated, then inserts finger into trigger guard and then racks/drops the slide, chambering a round, while clearly not aiming at or engaging a target. Did he do anything against the rules?

Edited March 30, 2010 by mhs

[Nik Habicht]

[in the 10 world shoot events I have shot in I have seen less than ten shooters dry fire on every target with an Auto. I will normally take one dry fire on the first target and thin maybe the once on the longer target. If a Monkey jumps on the trigger. I may take one more to knock it off.

Perhaps this is the reason.

From the IPSC Handgun Rules

"8.7.3. When permitted, competitors taking a sight picture with an unloaded

firearm prior to the start signal must only do so on a single target, to verify

that their sights are prepared as required. Competitors who test a targeting

sequence or a shooting position while taking a sight picture will incur one

procedural penalty per occurrence."

Nope. I'm pretty sure the IPSC rules don't apply at the Steel Challenge World Championships either.....

[Nik Habicht]

It won't be irrelevant when this "routine" shows up at a USPSA match.

Should we wait?

It's already covered by the rules. ROs constantly make calls based on changing situations --- this one isn't any different. 10.5.8 tells us that it's a match dq to have a finger in the trigger guard while loading the gun. So, have your finger in the trigger guard while inserting a mag --- time to go home. Have you finger in the trigger guard while cycling the slide -- time to go home. (If the purpose of loading isn't to get ammo into the chamber, and doesn't cover all of the (gun manipulating) steps necessary to accomplish that I'd be very surprised.)

But you were really looking to the wrong rule; look at 10.5.9 instead:

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading,reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the “Make Ready” command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

10.5.9 gives you two distinct exemptions where your finger may be on the trigger during the loading process. The situation described in the opening post doesn't fall into that exemption. I'd feel comfortable issuing a match dq under 10.5.9 for what would be considered legal and acceptable in a Steel Challenge match.....

[Nik Habicht]

In a USPSA match, at MR, a shooter puts a loaded mag in his gun, slide down, chamber empty, cocks the gun and dry-fires it at a target. Did he do anything against the rules?

Or:

In a USPSA match, during a COF, shooter does a static reload, finger out of the trigger guard until the mag is seated, then inserts finger into trigger guard and then racks/drops the slide, chambering a round, while clearly not aiming at or engaging a target. Did he do anything against the rules?

Yes and yes. See post above and rule 10.5.9.....

[Sarge]

In a USPSA match, at MR, a shooter puts a loaded mag in his gun, slide down, chamber empty, cocks the gun and dry-fires it at a target. Did he do anything against the rules?

No.

I know a production GM who runs a Glock. He inserts a mag then reholsters. He draws and dry fires his first target, racks the slide, holsters, then assumes the start position. He is most likely looking for weight similarities on the draw and fire.

Legal.

[mhs]

In a USPSA match, at MR, a shooter puts a loaded mag in his gun, slide down, chamber empty, cocks the gun and dry-fires it at a target. Did he do anything against the rules?

Or:

In a USPSA match, during a COF, shooter does a static reload, finger out of the trigger guard until the mag is seated, then inserts finger into trigger guard and then racks/drops the slide, chambering a round, while clearly not aiming at or engaging a target. Did he do anything against the rules?

Yes and yes. See post above and rule 10.5.9.....

From A3:

Loading . . . . . . . . . . . . . .The insertion of ammunition into a firearm.

Racking the slide is chambering a round, which was already loaded into the gun.

[Nik Habicht]

In a USPSA match, at MR, a shooter puts a loaded mag in his gun, slide down, chamber empty, cocks the gun and dry-fires it at a target. Did he do anything against the rules?

No.

I know a production GM who runs a Glock. He inserts a mag then reholsters. He draws and dry fires his first target, racks the slide, holsters, then assumes the start position. He is most likely looking for weight similarities on the draw and fire.

Legal.

I'd call that under 10.5.9......

....unless an RMI wants to persuade me differently.....

[aztecdriver]

Nik - I'm going to have to disagree here.

Finger in trigger guard during LOADING, UNLOADING, RELOADING - all 3 of which are delineated in the appendix as actions. A gun is considered loaded with a magazine in which a dummy or live round is inside the gun. What is going on here is a sight picture engagement of a target during make ready with a loaded handgun. Just because I have NOT yet racked the slide to chamber the round does not change the status of the handgun. Racking the slide, in essence, is a remedial action, in my book, because the gun will continue to malfunction (there's no bullet in the chamber) unless that action is taken. So 10.5.8 applies here.

I think that there is a small hole here that might need to be filled, just for clarity sake. Make Ready signifies the opening of the COF. 10.4.3 SPECIFICALLY states - 10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7. Think about it - How many times have you seen a competitor run to the end of the course, get IF you are finished, unload and show clear. - pop the mag out - see the Mike right in front of him - extend the gun out strong hand and break the one in the pipe at the target. For your reasoning to hold up - This would then be a DQ. He's half way through unloading, right? He's got the mag out - he just hasn't racked the slide. The gun was loaded, it was sighted and shot at a target.

The reason the rules bound 8.3.1 and 8.3.7 as areas where ANY shot is a match DQ is that this is where guns are handled, but you are not expected to allow it to be discharged.

I'm holding a gun, i put a magazine in it and hold it straight out. It's a loaded gun at that point, regardless if I've manipulated the slide. I'm under the same safety rules as any other time during the match - i'm just not allowed to actually discharge the weapon. If I dryfire then - what rule have I broken? If they didn't want to allow dryfire with a loaded handgun - saying without context would sound ridiculous - it would need to state - "after the process of loading has started, you are considered to be loading until the RO issues Are you ready?"

Now - after all that dryfire practice, I hold the trigger back and rack the slide - I'm definitely going home.

[rgkeller]

It won't be irrelevant when this "routine" shows up at a USPSA match.

Should we wait?

It's already covered by the rules. ROs constantly make calls based on changing situations --- this one isn't any different. 10.5.8 tells us that it's a match dq to have a finger in the trigger guard while loading the gun. So, have your finger in the trigger guard while inserting a mag --- time to go home. Have you finger in the trigger guard while cycling the slide -- time to go home. (If the purpose of loading isn't to get ammo into the chamber, and doesn't cover all of the (gun manipulating) steps necessary to accomplish that I'd be very surprised.)

But you were really looking to the wrong rule; look at 10.5.9 instead:

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading,reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the Make Ready command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

10.5.9 gives you two distinct exemptions where your finger may be on the trigger during the loading process. The situation described in the opening post doesn't fall into that exemption. I'd feel comfortable issuing a match dq under 10.5.9 for what would be considered legal and acceptable in a Steel Challenge match.....

I cited 10.5.9 in the original post.

You were the first person to bring up 10.5.8 and you misquoted it.

Edited March 30, 2010 by rgkeller

[Nik Habicht]

Nik - I'm going to have to disagree here.

Finger in trigger guard during LOADING, UNLOADING, RELOADING - all 3 of which are delineated in the appendix as actions. A gun is considered loaded with a magazine in which a dummy or live round is inside the gun. What is going on here is a sight picture engagement of a target during make ready with a loaded handgun. Just because I have NOT yet racked the slide to chamber the round does not change the status of the handgun. Racking the slide, in essence, is a remedial action, in my book, because the gun will continue to malfunction (there's no bullet in the chamber) unless that action is taken. So 10.5.8 applies here.

I think that there is a small hole here that might need to be filled, just for clarity sake. Make Ready signifies the opening of the COF. 10.4.3 SPECIFICALLY states - 10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7. Think about it - How many times have you seen a competitor run to the end of the course, get IF you are finished, unload and show clear. - pop the mag out - see the Mike right in front of him - extend the gun out strong hand and break the one in the pipe at the target. For your reasoning to hold up - This would then be a DQ. He's half way through unloading, right? He's got the mag out - he just hasn't racked the slide. The gun was loaded, it was sighted and shot at a target.

The reason the rules bound 8.3.1 and 8.3.7 as areas where ANY shot is a match DQ is that this is where guns are handled, but you are not expected to allow it to be discharged.

I'm holding a gun, i put a magazine in it and hold it straight out. It's a loaded gun at that point, regardless if I've manipulated the slide. I'm under the same safety rules as any other time during the match - i'm just not allowed to actually discharge the weapon. If I dryfire then - what rule have I broken? If they didn't want to allow dryfire with a loaded handgun - saying without context would sound ridiculous - it would need to state - "after the process of loading has started, you are considered to be loading until the RO issues Are you ready?"

Now - after all that dryfire practice, I hold the trigger back and rack the slide - I'm definitely going home.

Nope. Loading starts with the insertion of ammo into the gun (mag in) and ends with the closing of the slide after you rack it. If you want to drop the hammer on an empty chamber with a mag in the gun, then you can't rack the slide until after the starting buzzer, or you're in violation of 10.5.9.....

Feel free to arbitrate it.....

[Micah]

Feel free to arbitrate it.....

Appendix A3 shows us that:

A loaded firearm is a firearm that has a live or dummy round in the chamber, or a magazine that contains live or dummy rounds inserted into a firearm.

LOADING is the insertion of ammunition into a firearm.

10.5.9 stipulates the necessity to issue a match dq if a competitor fails to keep his/her finger outside of the trigger guard during loading, reloading, and unloading the firearm.

10.5.10 stipulates the necessity to issue a match dq if a competitor fails to keep his/her finger outside of the trigger guard whilst moving.

Since I am the GM that Sarge alluded to, and am "guilty" of performing such a Make Ready routine in USPSA, I submit to you that if I am not loading, unloading, reloading, or moving while dryfiring at a target, what infraction have I committed to merit a match disqualification?

[Chris Keen]

10.5.9 Finger in the trigger while loading.

[aztecdriver]

Nope. Loading starts with the insertion of ammo into the gun (mag in) and ends with the closing of the slide after you rack it. If you want to drop the hammer on an empty chamber with a mag in the gun, then you can't rack the slide until after the starting buzzer, or you're in violation of 10.5.9.....

Feel free to arbitrate it.....

1. I'll never need to arb this as it is not something I would do in practice at a match.

2. I might however be on an arb panel someday voting to over turn the dq.

3. If I'm going to call this at a match, I need something more to write on the scoresheet than 10.5.9

based on a3, the action of loading was done. I would buy your definition if you had a rule or ruling to show

me that states it that way. At this point I can't find a rule to support the dq.

I respectfully continue to disagree with you.

[steel1212]

10.5.9 Finger in the trigger while loading.

His finger wasn't in the trigger guard while loading, it was after the mag was in the gun during a sight picture.

Edited March 30, 2010 by steel1212

[driver8M3]

10.5.9 Finger in the trigger while loading.

you seem to be making the point that it's ok to have the finger in the trigger guard after loading, but not during.

if that's the case why would we need the exception for guns without a decocking lever?

[steel1212]

10.5.9 Finger in the trigger while loading.

you seem to be making the point that it's ok to have the finger in the trigger guard after loading, but not during.

if that's the case why would we need the exception for guns without a decocking lever?

Because there is a round in there when they are doing it and they need to lower the hammer.

[Micah]

10.5.9 Finger in the trigger while loading.

you seem to be making the point that it's ok to have the finger in the trigger guard after loading, but not during.

if that's the case why would we need the exception for guns without a decocking lever?

Because some firearms need to have the hammer pulled while gently easing the hammer back.

[Nik Habicht]

10.5.9 Finger in the trigger while loading.

His finger wasn't in the trigger guard while loading, it was after the mag was in the gun during a sight picture.

That's fine --- but if he's finished loading, then there's no need to cycle the slide after that point. If you do want to cycle the slide to start the stage with a round in the chamber, then you're not done loading until there's a round in the chamber...

You can't have it both ways....

[steel1212]

10.5.9 Finger in the trigger while loading.

His finger wasn't in the trigger guard while loading, it was after the mag was in the gun during a sight picture.

That's fine --- but if he's finished loading, then there's no need to cycle the slide after that point. If you do want to cycle the slide to start the stage with a round in the chamber, then you're not done loading until there's a round in the chamber...

You can't have it both ways....

So what constitutes the start of loading and the finish of loading?

[Chris Keen]

..... Loading starts with the insertion of ammo into the gun (mag in) and ends with the closing of the slide after you rack it. If you want to drop the hammer on an empty chamber with a mag in the gun, then you can't rack the slide until after the starting buzzer, or you're in violation of 10.5.9.....

Feel free to arbitrate it.....

[steel1212]

..... Loading starts with the insertion of ammo into the gun (mag in) and ends with the closing of the slide after you rack it. If you want to drop the hammer on an empty chamber with a mag in the gun, then you can't rack the slide until after the starting buzzer, or you're in violation of 10.5.9.....

Feel free to arbitrate it.....

Gotcha, should have looked up

So I didn't rack a round into the gun, I can't re-rack?

[aztecdriver]

Where does it say I can only load once?

[driver8M3]

10.5.9 Finger in the trigger while loading.

you seem to be making the point that it's ok to have the finger in the trigger guard after loading, but not during.

if that's the case why would we need the exception for guns without a decocking lever?

Because some firearms need to have the hammer pulled while gently easing the hammer back.

i get that. but you guys are saying that the loading is done once the mag is finished being inserted. if that's the case then we wouldnt need the exception, as i could play with the trigger as much as i want AFTER the mag is inserted.

[Corey]

this also seems to bring up a point isaw awhile back about "shooting while reloading". its a bit off track, yet pretty close to the heart of the discussino here...

ex: shooter hits the mag release to drop the mag. Mag falls to the ground (was not at slide lock, on still in the pipe). shooter then sees a target he missed/didnt like the hit on the target/whatever and before inserting new mag takes aim and fires a round at the aforementioned target. shooter then inserts mag, drops the slide and goes on his way. DQ or not?

[George Jones]

Loading/reloading/unloading are shooter actions, not a gun condition. Each of them require several steps to complete. If there is an interuption between any of those steps, the shooter is no longer "in the act of...". The finger may once again be in the trigger guard until such time as the next step of L/R/U process begins.

In other words, after the mag has been inserted in the gun and the weak-hand removed, the finger may be in the trigger guard (assuming no other finger restriction) until such time as the slide is racked, prior to which the finger must once again be out. This applies similarly to reloading and unloading.