Super Squad Routine at Steel Challenge

[Chuck Anderson]

Well, if I try that at the six local matches I can shoot in a month, I expect the over/under on DQs is four.

Then the clubs you shoot at aren't following USPSA rules and that's a bigger issue. If you want email Amidon and print out his reply saying you can do it. The bottom line is it's allowed under the rules.

[aztecdriver]

So, after Make Ready, I draw my Open pistol, rack the slide thus cocking the hammer, apply the safety, insert a loaded magazine, reholster, draw and pull the trigger dropping the hammer, I am good to go under current USPSA rules?

yes. Just don't go bang or rack the slide with you finger in the guard.

Why would racking the slide with no magazine in the pistol be a problem?

I was talking about after the sequence you described as being complete. You're going to have to continue to make ready - and that will involve racking the slide and holstering.

[aztecdriver]

Why would racking the slide with no magazine in the pistol be a problem?

Maybe he considers it loading. Since the consensus here seems to be that the A3 definition of loading is not complete, maybe he is trying to expand it even more.

As I see the rules, it's not a problem.

No - it was a misunderstanding of what I meant in that post - and I just cleared it up. Racking the slide with ammunition in the pistol following the sequence he described is a DQ. Maybe I shouldn't have added that to the simple "Yes" I started out with, because I think that George and Troy have been extremely clear on this.

[steel1212]

Basically it boils down to keep your bugger picker out of the trigger guard during the ACT of loading and your fine.

[Nik Habicht]

Why would racking the slide with no magazine in the pistol be a problem?

Because that's been clearly understood to be a no-no since the dawn of the game, in much the same way that losing control of (dropping) an unloaded blaster anytime during the course of fire is a match dq.....

[Nik Habicht]

Well, if I try that at the six local matches I can shoot in a month, I expect the over/under on DQs is four.

Then the clubs you shoot at aren't following USPSA rules and that's a bigger issue. If you want email Amidon and print out his reply saying you can do it. The bottom line is it's allowed under the rules.

So racking a slide with a finger in the trigger guard is o.k.? 'Cause that's what we're talking about now.....

[G-ManBart]

We are just so thrilled that you have found yet another little nonsensical time-wasting ritual to add to your already ridiculously long Make Ready routine. But in case you hadn't noticed due to all the sight-blacking, rosin-appying, hand-wiping, chamber-checking, and now loaded-gun-dry-firing, we're running out of daylight and it would be nice if the rest of us had a chance to shoot the frickin' stage.

Lighten up, Francis.

Are you our big toe?

And presumably our newest and bestest big buddy, Sergeant Hulka!

I have to admit, I did find Mike's comments pretty funny

[Flexmoney]

Having shot with or run most every shooter that we might be talking about...

Even the guys/gals with the longest and silliest MR routines are not an issue, from my perspective (and I'm pretty curt and uptight about keeping my stage running efficiently).

What does slow a stage down is if they aren't resetting between shooters. And, when that happens...I just use my outside voice to remind them. (and, that often serves to remind the folks that are holding them up by bending their ear asking them about their load data or shoes )

I think this thread has covered everything except what's for lunch.

[mactiger]

Having shot with or run most every shooter that we might be talking about...

Even the guys/gals with the longest and silliest MR routines are not an issue, from my perspective (and I'm pretty curt and uptight about keeping my stage running efficiently).

What does slow a stage down is if they aren't resetting between shooters. And, when that happens...I just use my outside voice to remind them. (and, that often serves to remind the folks that are holding them up by bending their ear asking them about their load data or shoes )

I think this thread has covered everything except what's for lunch.

Oh, I don't know. What are Amber Lamps?

Troy

[bbbean]

I think this thread has covered everything except what's for lunch.

BLT with two fried eggs, an order of fried jalapenos, and a coke.

Now the thread is complete.

[diehli]

Oh, I don't know. What are Amber Lamps?

Troy

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=amber+lamps&l=1

[SteveZ]

If you want email Amidon and print out his reply saying you can do it. The bottom line is it's allowed under the rules.

I'm not so sure you're going to get the answer your looking for. The following is a discussion I had with Amidon about this in 2006 (under the then current rule book):

SJZ: If a shooter is given the LAMR and during their sight picture process, sticks a loaded magazine into the gun (which under the second part of 10.5.13 is the definition of a "loaded" gun) and then goes back to their

sight picture routine and then places their finger in the trigger guard, are they then DQ'ed under 10.5.9 (finger in trigger guard while loading....)?

AMIDON: Steve, As you indicated, 10.5.13 gives the definition of a loaded gun, magazine inserted with a live round in it, does not have to be in the chamber, but under the load and make ready command, the loading process would not be complete until there is a round in the chamber even though the gun is specifically considered loaded with the mag inserted with a live round in it.

SJZ: OK..three questions follow:

SJZ: 1) if the shooter is given the LAMR command, draws their gun and places their finger in the trigger guard (sight picture/dry fire routine). They're not DQ'ed under 10.5.9 because the "loading" process hasn't begun (because they haven't placed a magzine in the gun yet?)

AMIDON: Correct, and they are following the RO's orders.

SJZ: 2) if the shooter is given the LAMR command, places a magazine into the gun (which commences the "loading" process) but hasn't chambered a round yet, and then places their finger in the trigger guard, they would be DQ'ed under 10.5.9 because their finger is in the trigger guard during the "loading" process (which ends when they chamber a round)?

AMIDON: Correct.

SJZ 3) and now the biggie. Shooter is given the LAMR command, places a magazine into the gun....chambers a round (which terminates the "loading" process). Puts their finger on the trigger...and while taking a sight picture....fires a round into a target. Are they DQ'ed and if so under which rule? The loading process has finished (round is in the

chamber) so 10.5.9 wouldn't apply anymore.

AMIDON: They would DQ'd, using rule 10.4.3, as rule 8.3.1 is not completed until the competitor assumes the start position, but the COF has started by issuing this command.

AMIDON: This will be addressed in the new rules to help make it as clear as possible, that a shot fired prior to the commencement of the COF, is a DQ.

According to Amidon (in 2006...maybe his opinion has changed since then), the "loading" process starts when you insert a loaded magazine into the gun...and ends when you chamber a round. Unless things have changed...Amidon ruling doesn't seem to agree with Troy or George. If you ask for a NROI ruling...its going to come from John.

Edited for formatting....

Edited April 2, 2010 by SteveZ

[Chuck Anderson]

I emailed John and copied the thread. I'm not sure which rules have changed since 2006 and don't know if his answer to you would apply any more. We'll see what he says.

[SteveZ]

I emailed John and copied the thread. I'm not sure which rules have changed since 2006 and don't know if his answer to you would apply any more. We'll see what he says.

Hi Chuck...yeah the rule numbers are the same from 2006 but John may have a different view on things now. It will be interesting to hear what he has to say these days about the issue.

[Jake Di Vita]

If the rules didn't change, there is not really anything to have a different "view" on?

[SteveZ]

If the rules didn't change, there is not really anything to have a different "view" on?

Having had many discussion with John in the past (Hi John!!!), I'm expecting the same response today that I received back in 2006. You're right Jake...nothing in the rules (with regards to this situation) has changed between 2006 and today.

When I wrote to John back in 2006, I wasn't trying to argue the point one way or the other...I was simply seeking the "right thing to do" if the situation happened. When I teach IPSC101 classes and the discussion about sight pictures comes up...I always tell them, if you do load the gun....DON'T put your finger in the trigger guard unless your gun doesn't have a decocker and pressing the trigger is the ONLY way to lower the hammer (which we all know about the exception in the rule book).

Edited April 2, 2010 by SteveZ

[Jake Di Vita]

I should have read your entire post first before commenting...

I'm not sure if he was asked the correct question for this current discussion.

[Chuck Anderson]

John's response.

Chuck,

If you will note, Steve is talking about a response I sent to him in 2006, we were operating under different rules then and my response fit those rules, however, an email as pointed out in the new rules Q&A from July of 2009, does not make a ruling, only the rules and an NROI official ruling through the proper procedure is accepted.

The section on sight pictures today, reads totally different than in 2006, under today’s rules there is nothing wrong with a loaded sight picture. If it goes off, it’s on the competitor.

John

[SteveZ]

John's response.

Chuck,

If you will note, Steve is talking about a response I sent to him in 2006, we were operating under different rules then and my response fit those rules, however, an email as pointed out in the new rules Q&A from July of 2009, does not make a ruling, only the rules and an NROI official ruling through the proper procedure is accepted.

The section on sight pictures today, reads totally different than in 2006, under today’s rules there is nothing wrong with a loaded sight picture. If it goes off, it’s on the competitor.

John

With regard to loading/loaded and sight pictures...I don't see much has changed between 2004 and 2008 with respect to putting your finger in the trigger guard AFTER inserting a magazine. In Johns email from 2006, he indicated that "loading" was defined as the time from when the magazine was inserted to when a round was chambered and that inserting your finger in the trigger guard during that time was a DQ'able offense. But......an email does not equal a rule...so I'll just disregard the entire conversation I had with John back in 2006 because his email is irrelevent. OK, I guess that by that logic, asking for Johns input on anything is simply Johns view and has no bearing....until it becomes an official NROI ruling.

I'll ask then...whats the point?

[ima45dv8]

I'll ask then...whats the point?

The benefit of asking is two-fold. Sometimes a question to John, or a Board member, results in a Ruling being developed and published on USPSA.org to plug up a previously unrealized hole in an existing rule. Or, in the case of a rule that doesn't contain a loophole but is just widely misunderstood, a Clarification is published in Front Sight.

[SteveZ]

I'll ask then...whats the point?

The benefit of asking is two-fold. Sometimes a question to John, or a Board member, results in a Ruling being developed and published on USPSA.org to plug up a previously unrealized hole in an existing rule. Or, in the case of a rule that doesn't contain a loophole but is just widely misunderstood, a Clarification is published in Front Sight.

No argument there from me...I was thinking more in the very short term timeframe rather than the long term. eg... "Hey John, my club has a stage this weekend that is a long COF and they've got shooting boxes in it....is that legal per 1.1.5.1? I can't exactly figure out if shooting boxes as used in 1.1.5.1 applies to all COF's in a Level I match...or short/medium COF's? Can you provide a clarification for me?"

WRT the above discussion I had with JA in 2006....John pointed out that having your finger in the trigger guard after inserting the magazine and before chambering a round was a DQ. As head of the NROI, I took his word for it.

Edited April 2, 2010 by SteveZ

[ima45dv8]

I'd probably take his word for it, too. The problem is, who's going to take my word that he said it when I'm standing on a firing line? I don't think a printed copy of an email is going to carry much weight at that point if someone understands how Rulings and Classifications are supposed to be handled.

[Flexmoney]

It matters little.

Amidon's opinion (along with any RM posting here and along with your Mother's opinion) carries zero "official" weight at a match.

We specifically state that matches are run under the current rule book. That does include "official interpretations" as posted (specifically) on the USPSA website.

Opinions carry the weight of the person giving them, but they aren't official at a match.

At a match, we have a rule book, the official interpretations, the calls of the match officials, and the arbitration process.

You could, theoretically, have two matches going on at the same time in two different locations. An identical situation could occur at both matches and could go all the way through the arb process. The arb might end with a different call from one match to the other.

And, when that gets reported (arbs get reported) ...then NROI would need to deal with it.

Luckily, that doesn't happen. Maybe, forums like this allow us to ferret out these fringe issues and knock them around in discussion. Then they can get addressed before they do become an issue at a match.

[George Jones]

So you agree that there is no such thing as a shot counter in the rulebook?

Sorry.... couldn't help myself.

[Flexmoney]

So you agree that there is no such thing as a shot counter in the rulebook?

Sorry.... couldn't help myself.

Sure, and I'll use my stop watch on my Timex the next time I run you through a cof. If you want to trust me to count, you can trust me to hit the start/stop buttons too.

Here is a vid of Manny, for your counting pleasure: http://www.youtube.com/user/Flexmoney#p/f/19/sVztGt-frHw

OK...now we have hit just about every topic in this thread.