mhs Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Loading/reloading/unloading are shooter actions, not a gun condition. Each of them require several steps to complete. If there is an interuption between any of those steps, the shooter is no longer "in the act of...". The finger may once again be in the trigger guard until such time as the next step of L/R/U process begins. In other words, after the mag has been inserted in the gun and the weak-hand removed, the finger may be in the trigger guard (assuming no other finger restriction) until such time as the slide is racked, prior to which the finger must once again be out. This applies similarly to reloading and unloading. From A3: Loading . . . . . . . . . . . . . .The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. By this definition, if the ammo is already in the firearm, you're not loading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 ..... Loading starts with the insertion of ammo into the gun (mag in) and ends with the closing of the slide after you rack it. If you want to drop the hammer on an empty chamber with a mag in the gun, then you can't rack the slide until after the starting buzzer, or you're in violation of 10.5.9..... Feel free to arbitrate it..... Gotcha, should have looked up So I didn't rack a round into the gun, I can't re-rack? You can rack a round into the chamber at any time. If however you had your finger in the trigger guard between the start of inserting the mag and finishing the racking of the slide, then I'd say you're in violation of 10.5.9. Could I be wrong about this? Sure, and I'd much rather find that out here than on the range.... On the range I'd like to get my calls correct, every time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Where does it say I can only load once? You can load as many times as you want --- you just can't put your finger in the trigger guard while loading the gun..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Loading/reloading/unloading are shooter actions, not a gun condition. Each of them require several steps to complete. If there is an interuption between any of those steps, the shooter is no longer "in the act of...". The finger may once again be in the trigger guard until such time as the next step of L/R/U process begins. In other words, after the mag has been inserted in the gun and the weak-hand removed, the finger may be in the trigger guard (assuming no other finger restriction) until such time as the slide is racked, prior to which the finger must once again be out. This applies similarly to reloading and unloading. So, despite the Appendix 3 definition of loading as "The insertion of ammunition into a firearm," NROI's position is that racking the slide is part of the loading process? Makes sense to me --- as long as we're clear on the concepts of "a finger shouldn't be in the trigger guard during magazine insertion" and "a finger shouldn't be in the trigger guard during racking of the slide....." That strict reading of the definition of loading (only covering mag insertion) would have set up a slippery slope toward unintended shots being fired -- my biggest concern.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Loading/reloading/unloading are shooter actions, not a gun condition. Each of them require several steps to complete. If there is an interuption between any of those steps, the shooter is no longer "in the act of...". The finger may once again be in the trigger guard until such time as the next step of L/R/U process begins. In other words, after the mag has been inserted in the gun and the weak-hand removed, the finger may be in the trigger guard (assuming no other finger restriction) until such time as the slide is racked, prior to which the finger must once again be out. This applies similarly to reloading and unloading. I concur, 100% (thought we might have a hiccup to deal with) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 So, despite the Appendix 3 definition of loading as "The insertion of ammunition into a firearm," NROI's position is that racking the slide is part of the loading process? Makes sense to me --- as long as we're clear on the concepts of "a finger shouldn't be in the trigger guard during magazine insertion" and "a finger shouldn't be in the trigger guard during racking of the slide....." That strict reading of the definition of loading (only covering mag insertion) would have set up a slippery slope toward unintended shots being fired -- my biggest concern.... Well, NROI should never have a "position" that might be in conflict with the rule book. I went round and round on vince's village on this same topic. It was a bit emotional, and not so much technical, for a number of pages. I think it is crystal clear that we (USPSA) don't want the finger in the trigger guard during racking the slide. Maybe we ought to make sure the next update of the rule book makes that clear as well? (Who is on the USPSA rule committee now days?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Yikes, Supersquad or not, I'm not sure I like that practice! I would guess they want the exact feeling of a loaded gun when they pull the trigger when preparing for a stage. SC is not like Uspsa. 5 plates so one bad shot will cost you big. Nothing is being done that is unsafe. Gun is pointed downrange into the plate/berm. If they feel it helps them and it doesn't violate any safety rules there is little that can be said. Flyin Oh, I can understand why they do it, and I didn't say it violated a rule, just that I'm not a fan of it. Any time you press the trigger on a gun, when ammo is present in the device, and expect that it's NOT going to go off is a bad practice in my book, but there are multiple reasons for that and it's not really relevant to the thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 I do think any shooter that does not know when the gun is loaded and unloaded is not thinking clearly and is acting unsafe. = as in firing a shot unintentionally That totally goes against the most basic gun safety rule in existence....."hey, it's okay, it's unloaded....BANG" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 I'll second what George said, and add this: There is nothing in USPSA rules that prohibits taking a loaded sight picture. While the rulebook does specify a definition for a loaded gun, loading one and having a loaded gun are two different things. Having your finger in the trigger guard while in the act of loading, i.e., inserting a magazine, racking the slide, etc., is a DQ for unsafe gun handling. However, taking a loaded sight picture is not against the rules, and having your finger in the trigger guard while doing so isn't against the rules, either. If the gun goes off, it's a DQ for AD. The practice you describe is not against either SC or USPSA rules as I understand them. All the competitor is doing is taking a loaded sight picture. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 I'll second what George said, and add this: There is nothing in USPSA rules that prohibits taking a loaded sight picture. While the rulebook does specify a definition for a loaded gun, loading one and having a loaded gun are two different things. Having your finger in the trigger guard while in the act of loading, i.e., inserting a magazine, racking the slide, etc., is a DQ for unsafe gun handling. However, taking a loaded sight picture is not against the rules, and having your finger in the trigger guard while doing so isn't against the rules, either. If the gun goes off, it's a DQ for AD. The practice you describe is not against either SC or USPSA rules as I understand them. All the competitor is doing is taking a loaded sight picture. Troy Tada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 good thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 I do think any shooter that does not know when the gun is loaded and unloaded is not thinking clearly and is acting unsafe. = as in firing a shot unintentionally That totally goes against the most basic gun safety rule in existence....."hey, it's okay, it's unloaded....BANG" I understand the sentiment here but we have to know when our gun is loaded or not when shooting USPSA. We have to dry fire at the end if the stage and the gun better be empty then. Any shooter with half a brain should be able to remember for 30 seconds that they put ammo in the gun at LAMR. As far as the rule George and Troy covered this very well. We've discussed this before and come to the same conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Private note to the prima donnas: We are just so thrilled that you have found yet another little nonsensical time-wasting ritual to add to your already ridiculously long Make Ready routine. But in case you hadn't noticed due to all the sight-blacking, rosin-appying, hand-wiping, chamber-checking, and now loaded-gun-dry-firing, we're running out of daylight and it would be nice if the rest of us had a chance to shoot the frickin' stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Hmmm...funny you said that. This has been said about revolvers shooters for as long as I can remember Alot of people forget these top shooters are top shooters. Quite a few guys on the forums shot with or at least watch these guys shoot. Name one of these guys that do what they do for any other reason than helping their performance. Most shooters are just weekend warriors and if those supersquads feel they need to do those extra little then so be it. You don't hear to much ridicule about other top guys in their respective sports getting alot of flak. You would get laughed at if you tried. To some of these guys this is how they make their living. It may not be directly but through teaching or selling equipment and whatever else they do that relates to shooting. I have seen all the supersquad shoot and there is only one that really takes along time that I recall. pri·ma don·na a vain or undisciplined person who finds it difficult to work under direction or as part of a team Nothing could be farther from the truth about 99.9% of our top guys. Flyin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Private note to the prima donnas: We are just so thrilled that you have found yet another little nonsensical time-wasting ritual to add to your already ridiculously long Make Ready routine. But in case you hadn't noticed due to all the sight-blacking, rosin-appying, hand-wiping, chamber-checking, and now loaded-gun-dry-firing, we're running out of daylight and it would be nice if the rest of us had a chance to shoot the frickin' stage. LOL! Maybe USPSA should steal one of the Steel Challenge Rules: Practice drawing or sighting must be held to a minimum and will not be allowed after the first string of fire. Thirty (30) seconds will be the standard for making ready for each additional string of fire. If the contestant is not prepared in a timely fashion, the Range Officer will announce, "Make Ready Now". The contestant then has ten (10) seconds to make ready and notify the Range Officer upon having done so. If the contestant has not notified the Range Officer of their readiness at the 10 second mark, the Range Officer will begin the verbal Start Commands. If the contestant does not engage the course of fire when the audible start signal sounds, they will be given a maximum time for that string of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 To drift a little further: everyone is allowed to prepare at their own pace. For each competitor that takes 30 seconds, there are at least 9 that do it in 10 or less. It's a wash, and makes no difference in the operation of the stage, in my experience. It may seem like a long time when you are standing with the competitor, but as an RO, you cannot rush the process under USPSA rules. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted March 31, 2010 Author Share Posted March 31, 2010 (edited) So, after Make Ready, I draw my Open pistol, rack the slide thus cocking the hammer, apply the safety, insert a loaded magazine, reholster, draw and pull the trigger dropping the hammer, I am good to go under current USPSA rules? Edited March 31, 2010 by rgkeller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 So, after Make Ready, I draw my Open pistol, rack the slide thus cocking the hammer, apply the safety, insert a loaded magazine, reholster, draw and pull the trigger dropping the hammer, I am good to go under current USPSA rules? yes. Just don't go bang or rack the slide with you finger in the guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted March 31, 2010 Author Share Posted March 31, 2010 Why would racking the slide with no magazine in the pistol be a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Why would racking the slide with no magazine in the pistol be a problem? Maybe he considers it loading. Since the consensus here seems to be that the A3 definition of loading is not complete, maybe he is trying to expand it even more. As I see the rules, it's not a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted March 31, 2010 Author Share Posted March 31, 2010 Well, if I try that at the six local matches I can shoot in a month, I expect the over/under on DQs is four. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Well, if I try that at the six local matches I can shoot in a month, I expect the over/under on DQs is four. LOL, let us know how it goes. At least it will get straightened out in the end. Then you won't have to worry about it anymore. Flyin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 We are just so thrilled that you have found yet another little nonsensical time-wasting ritual to add to your already ridiculously long Make Ready routine. But in case you hadn't noticed due to all the sight-blacking, rosin-appying, hand-wiping, chamber-checking, and now loaded-gun-dry-firing, we're running out of daylight and it would be nice if the rest of us had a chance to shoot the frickin' stage. Lighten up, Francis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 We are just so thrilled that you have found yet another little nonsensical time-wasting ritual to add to your already ridiculously long Make Ready routine. But in case you hadn't noticed due to all the sight-blacking, rosin-appying, hand-wiping, chamber-checking, and now loaded-gun-dry-firing, we're running out of daylight and it would be nice if the rest of us had a chance to shoot the frickin' stage. Lighten up, Francis. Are you our big toe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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