JRBean Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Thinking about setting up my Bushmaster A2 for the new tactical class. I'm trying to decide which scope to go with. I've narrowed it down to these three. The compact ACOG TA44-2(1.5x24)or TA47-2(2x20) mounted on top of the carry handle or the Aimpoint ML2 mounted in front of the carry handle. Target engagement will vary from 25 yards to 300 yards. Looking for the best balance between speed and accuracy. Thanks. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Ouch. Trajectories of carry-handle optic rifles suck. How many shots are past 100? 200? If not many, I'd go with the sight over the handguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 I had a 2x ACOG on the A2 handle before, worked fine as long as you keep in mind the scope stand off distance (something like 3.5" if I remember correctly) for the short range stuff <25 yds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 I agree with Erik. Get a flattop if you want to mount a scope. I would not compete with any of the scopes you mentioned. Not that they're not any good but there is better stuff out there. If you want an ACOG, get a TA11. If you want to save $$ get a Simmons 1.5-5X or Leupold 1-4X. If you want a dot, get an Eotech, especially at the distances you're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRBean Posted January 8, 2004 Author Share Posted January 8, 2004 I was hoping to find something that would work with A2 since that is what I already have. I know mounting a scope on top of the carry handle is going to complicate the shorter range shots, but it seems that knowing point of aim compared to actual point of impact at different distances is something you have to do regardless what type of sights you use. The height of the carry handle just makes it a little more difficult. I also want a set up where I still have my iron sights available in case something happens to the scope or if I decide shoot limited with it all I have to do is remove the scope. I agree the TA11 is probably the better choice of the ACOG line, but it is more than I can spend. The only reason I even considered the compact ACOG is because I found a place selling them for $575.00. Thats still more than I really want to spend, but getting a $800 scope for that price is worth it. I'd probaly prefer to try the TA50(3x), but the only way they had it listed was the cross hair model. The others have the triangle. I'm not really a big fan of the Eotech. I haven't had a chance to shoot an AR with it yet. A friend of mine has one on his open AR as the only optic. I have taken a few sight pictures with it and the outer ring was fuzzy and it seemed to distract from the center dot. His is a Holosight. I not sure if the Eotechs are the exact same. I hope to get a chance to actually shoot his AR so I can see if it is something I could get use to. It seems like it would work really well on shots under 100 yards but I'm not sure I could make the harder shots with it. The Aimpoint seemed the more forgiving choice(and the less expensive one) as far as eye releif, mounting height, and finding the dot. It doesn't offer any magnification though. Which is something I will probably need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucas Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 You said tactical right.Forget any thing with magnification,even though a low power variable scope or fixed power will get you through.I say this not because i dont use them ,on the contrary,i use a SN4 and or a TA31 in comp all the time and for me i should say, know first hand their stengths and weaknesses in differ shooting scenario's including low light and no light mock confrontations.This is my findings.You dont want anything that requires a maintained eye relief regardless, if you can still keep both eyes open or not for anything that is CQB,and when you say tactical its close to the same thing .For instance , breaking a door down,clearing a building/room,especially if its at night,because in these types of instances close up and personal you want to maintain as much of your peripheral vision as possible and quickly shoot accurately even if your head is not in the best of positions, and a dot does that best period ,not to say acogs aren't close but this kind of close ,with lets say a acog is as good well under 25yds as a dot is at 300yds.They both will work which distance is your priority?IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Well there is "tactical" as in real life and "tactical" as in tactical class. IMHO in tactical class, variable power scopes rule. Magnification is your friend. But those matches are in the daytime where no one is shooting at you. I'll defer to some of our forums experts as to the tactical class in real life. Another observation, the Eotech is a better sight for the longer shots than the Aimpoint since it has a 1 MOA dot as opposed to the 3 or 4 MOA in the Aimpoint. That's 3 inches at 300 versus 9-12 inches. A 3 MOA dot completely almost completely covers a 10 inch plate at 300 yards. I hear lots of talk about guys shooting Aimpoints well at 200, 300, 400 yards but I have yet to see it. I have seen it with an Eotech, albeit Mike Voigt was behind the wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 What!? Those compact ACOGs cost $575?! For that money, you can buy a flattop upper receiver, fit your barrel and parts to it, and get one of the low-power variables kellyn mentioned. Personally, I'd just rather shoot Limited than have to look through one of those compact ACOGs. Lucas, he said tactical class. He meant USPSA's "Tactical" rifle division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChandlerSniper158 Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 I you have to go with the A2 upper but still want to go with an Aimpoint, use an ARMS #39 gooseneck mount. It moves the optic out over the handguard, and keeps your cheekweld where it belongs. You will still have your iron sights there if you want/need them with this mount as well. Another thing you mentioned was the cost of an Aimpoint over an EOTech. I am a distributor for both. The EOTech 511 will mount right on a flattop with nothing else needed, those sell for $285.00, an Aimpoint on the other hand will sell for $355.00 and then you will still need to buy a mount ( they do not come with one anymore), which range from $90.00 to $175 depending on which one you want, for it before you can put it on a weapon. Aimpoint has had a substantial dealer price increase for 2004 and unless you have found someone who had a good supply before the new year ( cuz I have been waiting for my last order for 3 months now), you will pay the 2004 pricing. You say your not really a big fan of the EOTech, but you haven`t fired a weapon with one on it, just taken sight pictures. I would suggest you shoot a rifle with one before you decide between the two, I think you will be suprised. The Holosight and EOTech are the same thing. EOTech makes both. They have a deal with Bushnell, they make Military and LE optics, Bushnell sells em to the civilian market, other than that.. they are the same optic internally, NV compatable ones excluded of course. Kelly mentioned the difference in dot size between the two.. the 1 MOA dot is much better for precise shots than the 4 MOA dot in the Aimpoint when you start to up the distance. CS#158 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardw Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 JRBean, Eotech and the fuzzy reticle. Yes, it can be a little fuzzy. I have an astigmatism that compounds this problem, and it is something I have to deal with. One problem people have when they first pick up the Eotech and look at the reticle is that they look directly at it. If you look past it at an object in the distance, for some reason, the reticle cleans up a bit. Don't ask me why. Just something to try next time you get to check out the Eotech. Santa brought me mine, and I'm just now getting up to speed with it, but the advantages over irons are great. One of the things I've found that I really like is how much easier it makes weak side shooting. Since only the weak eye sees the reticle, there is no double vision when shooting with both eyes open and trying to decide which front sight to look at... Hope this helps. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucas Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 USPSA tactical class,OOPS.I should of known since i wasnt in AR15.com.Sorry.Yes i'm a idiot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 You guys have me really, really wanting an EOTech now. The problem is, if I get one for my truck gun, I'll want one for my house gun too. And then I'll start second guessing my Leupold 1-4X on my "game" gun. If I ever manage to scrape together enough dinero for one, I'll definitely get the AA model. The problem is, for some odd reason I keep thinking I want the version with the night vision settings. No, I have no use for it and I don't even own any night vision devices! It just seems like a cool "what if" to have for the uncertain future. Does having the night vision settings limit the number of daylight brightness settings? Is it a problem, or just a silly waste of money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRBean Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 ChandlerSniper158 I was planning on mounting the Aimpoint on a goose neck mount in front of the carry handle. I'd have to mount the Eotech there as well. The eotech model that I was looking at was the 512(the one that uses AA batteries). I think it is about the same as the Aimpoint in price. When I mentioned the Aimpoint being cheaper I ment in relation to the ACOG price. kellyn and Eric, I agree that a flat top would be best. Unfortunately there's more to it than just buying a receiver. Receiver $100 A3 handle or ARMS flip up rear sight $100 Gas block with rail $60-$80 Front sight $50 Gunsmith fees ???? Regular scope and rings $150 at least Eotech or Aimpoint $300- $450 I don't want to end up over invested in the rifle itself. If I was just purchasing a rifle I would have Benny build me a flat top one, but I already have a rifle so I'm trying to make the best of what I have. howardw, I'm going to try to take the holosight for a test drive this weekend. I tried the looking past the sight and focus on the target thing the other day but it still looked fuzzy. Rock River Arms sells an interesting upper reciever that might work. They call it their U.T.E model. It is a raised flat top with the A2 sights built in. This would allow me to mount a scope and still have irons for limited. It sells for $130 stripped. Any opinions on this type and would the variable power scopes with low mount rings work or would the dot scopes be a better choice with this receiver. I still like the look of the compact ACOG mounted on the A2. For some reason it sure looks wicked. I'm inclined to agree though that being mounted that high would kind of suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Receiver $100; A3 handle or ARMS flip up rear sight $100; Gas block with rail $60-$80; Front sight $50; Gunsmith fees ???? You don't need the iron sights to shoot Tactical division with an optic. You don't need a new gas block. All the gunsmith has to do is disassemble your upper and reassemble the parts on the new flattop receiver (basically, the barrel and extension, the gas block and the tube). No big deal. I'm not even sure if he needs your bolt to headspace it. Rock River Arms sells an interesting upper reciever that might work. They call it their U.T.E model. It is a raised flat top with the A2 sights built in. Universal Tactical Entry, huh? (I wonder who's getting entered?) By the looks of it, any optic would be above the rear sight aperture, which is the ideal height for your eye. So, like the carry handle, you'd need a stock piece to lift your eye up, and you'd still have an excess of scope height to deal with. Co-witnessing the irons and a scope seems highly unlikely. Even an Aimpoint looks like it might not co-witness. This would allow me to mount a scope and still have irons for limited. Hey now, you're changing the specs on us. You didn't mention Limited before. I still like the look of the compact ACOG mounted on the A2. For some reason it sure looks wicked. Oh, you want the rifle to look badass? Take it from someone who shoots a dorky-looking Limited rifle: nobody cares at 3 gun matches. If you want to look wicked, take up Airsoft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRBean Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 Erik, I'm not really looking for something that I can co-witness with, just something that I can remove the scope and shoot limited with if I decide to. I think I mentioned that in my second post. The U.T.E is not quite as tall as the A2 carry handle and since the Eotech could mount directly to the flat top without using another mount it might not be to tall on the rifle. I wouldn't have to go through the trouble of rezoring the iron sights the way I might with an A3 handle. I was testing the cheek weld on an AR at the range the other night to see what type of difference there would be between the regular sights and something mounted on the carry handle. It actually felt more natural to look over the handle for me compared to looking at iron sights. It felt like I had to lean way forward to get a sight picture. This was a carbine model, so I don't know if the stock lentgh was different or something. I can't try mine right now because Benny actually has my top end installing a comp for me. With a regular flat top wouldn't the front sight post interfere with the sight picture of a regular scope mounted that low? That's why I figured in the gas block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 There are a lot of reasons for it, but they are all right on the money. Most of the big dawgs shoot a flattop because it works best. The lower, the better. Yes, a box stock AR with carry handle would be fine for Limited, but a Flattop is better. Get a low rail flattop and you can do anything with it. No other configuration is as flexible PERIOD In this configuration, you don't use a standard front sight/gas block combo if you are doing it right. Instead you use a custom gas block with a rail for detachable/changeable front sights. As far as scopes/optics go, crosshairs, or other precision reticles with magnification up to 3-4x just plain work best for competition optics PERIOD All of the reasons are well stated in other threads here, but once again, if the top shooters are choosing this gear, there have to be good reasons. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 A front sight housing doesn't affect magnified scopes or non-magnified dot sights. The focus is far downrange, not up close. Sometimes you'll see something but you won't notice it if you don't concentrate on it. Read these words on your monitor and focus on them, then hold up a finger bear your face, still focusing on these words. Your finger is there, but it's on a different focal plane, so it's not obscuring the target, the object of your focus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bulm5 Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 I am in the same boat too, I have decided on a Bennie Cooley Co witness mount on my A2 and an EOtech. Could not justify the expense of buying a flat top. maybe next year. Like the Aimpoint as far as cosmetics but the eotechs are just faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChandlerSniper158 Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Rhino, You won`t lose any of your daytime settings with the NOD compatable optics, you get 20 up and down either way. The NV setting is its own setting on the unit. Check out thier website, it explains it on there. ( BTW.. check out the photo album.. the guy kneeling in the balaclava is me.. ) JR, I guess you need to decide what you really want to use your rifle for. Do you want it to "look wicked", or do you want to have a rifle you can be competitive with? If you want to have a wicked looking rifle, why not just get a second upper and set one up for 3 gun and the other for your super duper ninja rifle. I talk to guys evryday who are spending money for the second and third time because they are doing the same thing you are talking about. Please don`t think I`m getting down on you.. that`s not what I`m trying to say. I just want you to think about what it is you really want to do with your rifle, and spend the money you do have wisely. There are alot of very knowlegable people giving you advice here. Listen to what they are telling you. If you want a rifle you can be competitive with, spend the money for the flattop, you`ll be much farther ahead in the long run. Don`t waste your time with the RRA UTE upper, you won`t be able to co-witness your irons if you have an EOTech or Aimpoint on it. If you want to use the EOTech on a gooseneck, you need to use the PRI one made for them. The ARMS #39 puts it up a little too high and you cannot co-witness your irons with it. I sell the 512 for $335, your still about $20 less than an Aimpoint and you still got to buy a mount for it. CS#158 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRBean Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 Yeah I know the look wicked part was kind of weak. I understand what everyone is saying about the flat top and appreciate the advice. It looks like I'll have to decide to simply stay in limited or invest more into the rifle itself than I really want too. I not really looking to be super competitive. The 3-gun route for me is purely for fun. My main competitive focus is Open pistol. The chance to use a red dot on my rifle and still get to use my other limited equipment sounded like a lot of fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Funny thing about just wanting to have a red dot on an iron sighted AR to shoot 3 gun. If the stage favors speed and has a lot of close stuff, the good iron sighted shooters can dominate the stage, dot, or no dot. When the stage has real long stuff, the guys shooting large red dots (bigger than 3 moa) are typically dead in the water, meanwhile the iron sight guys are still putting good hits downrange at appreciable distances. Moral here, don't feel bad about shooting iron sights. I just watched an iron sight AR shooter hit steel out to 225 yards with 1 round each while a holosight equipped shooter had lotsa trouble on the long stuff after hosing the steel that was under 125 yards. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 I don't want to end up over invested in the rifle itself. If I was just purchasing a rifle I would have Benny build me a flat top one, but I already have a rifle so I'm trying to make the best of what I have. You could have the carry handle removed and do one of those Mark Brown-style conversions. I don't remember how much they cost, but they sell 'em at Brownells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 When Kelly said that the no-knock warrant recipient was known to "constantly carry an assault weapon" I had a momentary flash of it being a certain well armed forum denizen (who shall remain nameless) and the crime being related to public exposure Hey! I resemble that remark! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 You won`t lose any of your daytime settings with the NOD compatable optics, you get 20 up and down either way. The NV setting is its own setting on the unit. Check out thier website, it explains it on there. ( BTW.. check out the photo album.. the guy kneeling in the balaclava is me.. ) Thanks for the info... I must not have been looking for it (or I just can't read) the last time I was there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChandlerSniper158 Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 I just got this email from my EOTech rep. Thought it might add some help for future decision making. I edited the name of the writer due to the fact he is still an active SF soldier. CS#158 Dear Sir I am a member of a National Guard Special Forces unit in Alabama. Even though your sight is not issued to us, a large number of them, have found their way into our unit. I personelly have been using your AA bat versions since they were introduced. We have used them extensivly at out Advanced Urban Combat Course, where we instructors introduced your sight to the teams from within the unit. Your sight proved itself time and time again. Your sight is vastly superior to the Aimpoint, which as you know we are issued. I used your sight in our SFAUC course and took it to Kosovo and Afghanistan. Even thought we were in terrain that was open, mountains and urban. The EO Tech was the best sight out of all the other sights were issued. I much perfered it over the ACOG 4X32 even in the open area. Even though we had the PEQ-2 lasers I never used it on my M4 because with the EO Tech and the PVS-14 co-located I could engage any target at night that I could see and not leave a signature. I cannot express again how much your product is believed in and used, even though it is not an issued item for our unit. Your product has such a large following within our unit that if the aimpoint rep ever showed up he would wonder what happened to their sight. Thank You Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now