New Rules

[Nik Habicht]

I have a question about this;

1.2.2.3 “Speed Shoot”-Courses of fire consisting of one continuous string of fire not exceeding 16 rounds shot on one or more arrays of multiple targets from a single location or view. No more than 8 rounds may be required without a mandatory reload and no more than one mandatory reload may be required in the course of fire. Stage may be scored either Comstock or Virginia Count. See Rule 9.2.3.2.

Do you have to state specifically when a reload would occur? In other words, could you simply say "Mandatory reload must be performed after the first target is engaged but before the last target is engaged" or something similar?

This is a bad idea. It would lead to skipping the reload entirely (if you gun holds that much ammo) and taking the single procedural.

Two procedurals, right? Before engaging the last target -- fire two rounds at it, and 10.2.4 seems to require a procedural per shot fired.....

[molson]

All,

Please excuse me, but I have not seen this point brought up yet. Shooting production, I walk up to the line with a magazine in my hand. This magazine is the one I am going to use at "Make Ready". In carrying this mag, I most likely, walking as we humans do, will have carried it in front of me at least once. Based on the whole waist band, front pocket, etc arguments, this will also put me in open. Or am I just missing something here? I am so confused. This entire rule needs to be officially written and clarified as to it's real intent. Of coarse this is just an opinion, and as usual, I am probably so far off base that I should see a shrink.

Molson

[spanky]

I have a question about this;

1.2.2.3 “Speed Shoot”-Courses of fire consisting of one continuous string of fire not exceeding 16 rounds shot on one or more arrays of multiple targets from a single location or view. No more than 8 rounds may be required without a mandatory reload and no more than one mandatory reload may be required in the course of fire. Stage may be scored either Comstock or Virginia Count. See Rule 9.2.3.2.

Do you have to state specifically when a reload would occur? In other words, could you simply say "Mandatory reload must be performed after the first target is engaged but before the last target is engaged" or something similar?

This is a bad idea. It would lead to skipping the reload entirely (if you gun holds that much ammo) and taking the single procedural.

Before the last target is engaged would make it two procedurals though, right?

[bigbrowndog]

it would seem that as usual our all knowing, all understanding, overseers have dropped the ball. In the haste to write rulings, important language has either been left out, or completely omitted. The ability for one individual to see all aspects and scenarios is severely limited, thus tunnel vision ensues and a defensive posture follows.

If the language used is clearly indecipherable by those of us that routinely read the rules, how on earth do the powers that be expect new shooters or beginners to understand. We have already heard from a long time USPSA BoD member and they have interpretted a ruling as clearly being confusing to them. If the necessary language cannot be placed into effect, and common sense prevails in that ignoring the rules is the viable solution, then why do we even use them. if my pocket is in front of my hip bone or my hand is and I have a mag there, then I'm suddenly placed in Open, I can guarantee you that a fight will ensue, because I can also guarantee you that not everyone will interpret the rule the same, so just as a target must be presented to each competitor the same, so MUST a rule. There are reasons that some things are better done by committee and some better by soloists, and clearly rule writing and interpretation is best done by committee, reveiwed by the masses and then placed into effect. Too often the most important stuff is done last when memory and ability have faded, and all help has deserted.

Get it done right the first time, its what you were placed there to do.

trapr

[Gary Stevens]

Well Mr. Dog we try, but as humans often do, we fail at times.

As to the other issue, since it says "engage" and "engage" means one round, wouldn't it be one penalty?

[JThompson]

My understanding is the "speedshoot" was put in there so we can design classifiers which test all areas of shooting skill. The way it is now, it has to be shot at a L III and has to fall within the current rules set. When I took the CRO test, one of my biggest issues was designing a stage that would become a classifier. It was a catch 22. I can't take a classifier exemption because it's not yet a classifier. Also, to challenge the skill set without a rules change requires a lot more props than we want to put in a classifier. I design 5-6 of them and after I was done with each I discarded them as requiring to much effort to duplicate nationally. The chance for inconsistent setup was just too great. What we are left with are stages that test very little and all look like variations of the same stage.

For instance, before the rules change you could not submit El Prez as a stage and have it shot at a L III as it does not fall within the rules. So what the BOD was getting is a bunch of stages that looked and shot the same and not testing skills that a classifier should test.

As to reloads, yes, just write them up in the WSB the same as was done for El Prez and have a per shot penalty for not following the WSB. As long as there are a couple of shots after the mag change it's no longer an add to blow it off, or if there is it's only for the low end of the spectrum. I would say that classifiers fall outside the "freestyle" concept in that we want to test a skill set evenly accross the board. It's the one area I feel freestyle restrictions are not a hinderence to the spirit of our sport. It's a test and like any other needs to have controls in place so people don't cheat it. We want to test the skill set, not an ability for lateral thinking.

That's about it from me on this paticular rule...

Best.

JT

Edited March 8, 2010 by JThompson

[Nik Habicht]

As to the other issue, since it says "engage" and "engage" means one round, wouldn't it be one penalty?

10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed.

Stage procedure: Engage T1-T8 as they become visible. Perform a mandatory reload anytime after firing the first shot and prior to engaging the last target.

That requires the reload before firing the last two (we customarily fire two per target) shots -- and if the competitor engages that target twice, 2 procedurals apply under 10.2.4. the competitor could engage the final target only once, in which case he'd earn one procedural (10.2.4) and a miss. Or the competitor could skip engaging the last target, thereby avoiding any procedurals under 10.2.4, but at the expense of two misses and a procedural for FTE....

Either way -- that competitor's leaving significant points on the table. If there's a stage where it's worth it to do that, it won't be worth it for everyone -- and that would be fun too, to actually have people take different strategies based on what would generate a higher hit factor...

[Gary Stevens]

Did I not fufill the engage requirement, and the penalty when I fired that first shot? I engaged and earned a penalty. It seems that should be the end of it.

[Nik Habicht]

Did I not fufill the engage requirement, and the penalty when I fired that first shot? I engaged and earned a penalty. It seems that should be the end of it.

Nope --- a mandatory reload was specified at a certain point in the course of fire -- before engaging the final target. 10.2.4 says that you earn a procedural per shot fired after the point where the reload was required, until you make the reload. Prior to engaging simply specifies the latest point in the stage where a mandatory reload may occur -- it favors a freestyle approach, as competitors are free to reload anytime after engaging the first, and before engaging the last target. That freedom might allow for variations in stage planning on stages involving steel or movers. If you engage the final target (without having reloaded) with two rounds, then two procedurals. Engage it with three, then three procedurals....

It's no different then writing it as "Engage T1-T4, then perform a mandatory reload, and engage T5-8" except that you've (sort of) reduced the number of procedurals a competitor can earn for forgetting to reload. You can't get it down to 1, without taking a miss, but you're not likely to have a brain-dead competitor racking up eight either...

[Gary Stevens]

Well I could be wrong, as others have previously pointed out, but I'll wait for the movie on this one. The WSB specifically said before "engaging", that occured on the first shot.

Obviously other great minds may differ

[BayouSlide]

All,

Please excuse me, but I have not seen this point brought up yet. Shooting production, I walk up to the line with a magazine in my hand. This magazine is the one I am going to use at "Make Ready". In carrying this mag, I most likely, walking as we humans do, will have carried it in front of me at least once. Based on the whole waist band, front pocket, etc arguments, this will also put me in open. Or am I just missing something here? I am so confused. This entire rule needs to be officially written and clarified as to it's real intent. Of coarse this is just an opinion, and as usual, I am probably so far off base that I should see a shrink.

Molson

Why would it be an issue if you walk up to the line with your make ready mag in your hand? Your magazine will be inserted in the pistol at Make Ready. Per 8.2.3, you are not allowed to have a loaded mag in hand (or gun in hand) after Standby. But prior to that it makes no difference according to the rules if you walk around the range all day with a loaded mag in your hand (except the safety area, of course) or in any pocket you want. But if you intend to use a mag from the pocket after the buzzer, it's placement becomes important.

Curtis

Edited: 'cause I hate typos!

Edited March 8, 2010 by BayouSlide

[Nik Habicht]

Well I could be wrong, as others have previously pointed out, but I'll wait for the movie on this one. The WSB specifically said before "engaging", that occured on the first shot.

Obviously other great minds may differ

Gary,

let me turn it around: What's different about the way that classifier WSBs are written that allows for multiple penalties? Engage T1-3 with 2 rounds each, perform a mandatory reload, then engage T4-6 with two rounds each --- how many procedurals if a competitor just cranks off all 12 rounds without a reload?

[Gary Stevens]

Yep, I see your point, and you may very well be right. I'm going to man the guns for a bit longer though because of the unique wording the poster suggested.

Years ago we abandoned the language of "reload before the last shot" because of the "I'll just take the penalty" attitude. This is not that much different, IMO.

I have the crow on the plate with some ketchup ready. After the instructor conference this weekend, I may put him in the microwave for a quick snack.

[George Jones]

Micorwave? C'mon, if you're gonna eat it, at least order it baked.

Or "roasted" perhaps?

[molson]

All,

Please excuse me, but I have not seen this point brought up yet. Shooting production, I walk up to the line with a magazine in my hand. This magazine is the one I am going to use at "Make Ready". In carrying this mag, I most likely, walking as we humans do, will have carried it in front of me at least once. Based on the whole waist band, front pocket, etc arguments, this will also put me in open. Or am I just missing something here? I am so confused. This entire rule needs to be officially written and clarified as to it's real intent. Of coarse this is just an opinion, and as usual, I am probably so far off base that I should see a shrink.

Molson

Why would it be an issue if you walk up to the line with your make ready mag in your hand? Your magazine will be inserted in the pistol at Make Ready. Per 8.2.3, you are not allowed to have a loaded mag in hand (or gun in hand) after Standby. But prior to that it makes no difference according to the rules if you walk around the range all day with a loaded mag in your hand (except the safety area, of course) or in any pocket you want. But if you intend to use a mag from the pocket after the buzzer, it's placement becomes important.

Curtis

Edited: 'cause I hate typos!

Yeah, I do not see why it would be an issue either, and I would like to point out that the rule states "During the course of fire". Problem is I do not see why it would be a problem to use a magazine that you retrieve from your front pocket or for that matter from your waistband for make ready that others have pointed out either. It has been pointed out that depending on what division you are shooting in, it is possibly not legal to do so. So, if these are not legal, why would carrying that make ready magazine in your hand be legal? It is going to be carried in front of you, or at least in front of your holster and specifically designed magazine carriers at some point, making that mode of carry illegal. I know, it makes no sense.

Another poster has pointed out that stowing a magazine in your front pocket after unload and show clear also bumps you to open. Again, this makes absolutely no sense.

Again, this rule needs to be clarified and perhaps rewritten to remove any confusion. Different people are interpreting this rule differently. And this is going to be a problem from match to match, RO to RO, and competitor to competitor. I can see that this may very well be big problem for many. Bumped to open because I removed my make ready magazine from my front pocket? Bumped to open because I stowed my magazine after unload and show clear in my front pocket? I hope we get some wordage added to that rule to clarify the intent.

Cheers!

[Nik Habicht]

Yep, I see your point, and you may very well be right. I'm going to man the guns for a bit longer though because of the unique wording the poster suggested.

Years ago we abandoned the language of "reload before the last shot" because of the "I'll just take the penalty" attitude. This is not that much different, IMO.

I have the crow on the plate with some ketchup ready. After the instructor conference this weekend, I may put him in the microwave for a quick snack.

It's not my intention to make you eat crow --- if anything I want to be like George and you when I reach Senior status..... :P

[BayouSlide]

All,

Please excuse me, but I have not seen this point brought up yet. Shooting production, I walk up to the line with a magazine in my hand. This magazine is the one I am going to use at "Make Ready". In carrying this mag, I most likely, walking as we humans do, will have carried it in front of me at least once. Based on the whole waist band, front pocket, etc arguments, this will also put me in open. Or am I just missing something here? I am so confused. This entire rule needs to be officially written and clarified as to it's real intent. Of coarse this is just an opinion, and as usual, I am probably so far off base that I should see a shrink.

Molson

Why would it be an issue if you walk up to the line with your make ready mag in your hand? Your magazine will be inserted in the pistol at Make Ready. Per 8.2.3, you are not allowed to have a loaded mag in hand (or gun in hand) after Standby. But prior to that it makes no difference according to the rules if you walk around the range all day with a loaded mag in your hand (except the safety area, of course) or in any pocket you want. But if you intend to use a mag from the pocket after the buzzer, it's placement becomes important.

Curtis

Edited: 'cause I hate typos!

Yeah, I do not see why it would be an issue either, and I would like to point out that the rule states "During the course of fire". Problem is I do not see why it would be a problem to use a magazine that you retrieve from your front pocket or for that matter from your waistband for make ready that others have pointed out either. It has been pointed out that depending on what division you are shooting in, it is possibly not legal to do so. So, if these are not legal, why would carrying that make ready magazine in your hand be legal? It is going to be carried in front of you, or at least in front of your holster and specifically designed magazine carriers at some point, making that mode of carry illegal. I know, it makes no sense.

Another poster has pointed out that stowing a magazine in your front pocket after unload and show clear also bumps you to open. Again, this makes absolutely no sense.

Again, this rule needs to be clarified and perhaps rewritten to remove any confusion. Different people are interpreting this rule differently. And this is going to be a problem from match to match, RO to RO, and competitor to competitor. I can see that this may very well be big problem for many. Bumped to open because I removed my make ready magazine from my front pocket? Bumped to open because I stowed my magazine after unload and show clear in my front pocket? I hope we get some wordage added to that rule to clarify the intent.

Cheers!

The wording "During the course of fire" does raise a question, in hindsight, because according to 8.3.1, the Make Ready command is the beginning of the COF. "After the start signal" might be a better choice of terms and would adequately address the issue without raising the sort of problems of interpretation you're worried about.

The new rule seems designed to specifically address a slight gray area of interpretation of the rulebook regarding retrieval of magazines from the pocket for reloads...now this is specifically addressed as permitted, BUT there are still restrictions based on equipment requirements in a division like Production that requires all magazines and the holster to be behind the front of the hipbones. All this means is that IF you do use a magazine from the pocket for a reload after the beep (which is how I would interpret the intent of the rule as a CRO), that it was located as required by any restrictions in your division's equipment requirements. I usually keep my Make Ready mag with 11 rounds—I'm a Production competitor—in the front "cell phone" pocket on my 5.11s.

The key is whether you are using this magazine for a reload after the beep. Stowing a magazine in your front pocket after unload and show clear bumps you to Open? Have you used this magazine for a reload during the COF? Would holding the magazine in your hand after If You are Finished Unload and Show Clear bump you Open...Of course not. You have to retrieve the magazine for a reload from a location not permitted, i.e. in front of the hipbone, after the beep and before Unload and Show Clear to get the ticket to Open.

This rule is rather straightforward in correcting a gray area and I really don't see any problem from any R.O. with basic familiarity with the rulebook and this issue.

If I'm wrong, I'm sure we'll both be corrected in short order...that's the great thing about a forum regularly visited by the NROI's instructor cadre.

Curtis

Edited for clarity and to address an additional point.

Edited March 9, 2010 by BayouSlide

[George Jones]

It's not my intention to make you eat crow --- if anything I want to be like George and you when I reach Senior status..... :P

And your biological clock is rapidly and loudly ticking!

[Nik Habicht]

It's not my intention to make you eat crow --- if anything I want to be like George and you when I reach Senior status..... :P

And your biological clock is rapidly and loudly ticking!

Better that than slowing, like yours. In your position I'd encourage Brian to go to med school too.... :sight:

[George Jones]

And your biological clock is rapidly and loudly ticking!

Better that than slowing, like yours. In your position I'd encourage Brian to go to med school too.... :sight:

He's there. Now I just have to assure my timer keeps counting <muted reference to Flex >.

[molson]

All,

Please excuse me, but I have not seen this point brought up yet. Shooting production, I walk up to the line with a magazine in my hand. This magazine is the one I am going to use at "Make Ready". In carrying this mag, I most likely, walking as we humans do, will have carried it in front of me at least once. Based on the whole waist band, front pocket, etc arguments, this will also put me in open. Or am I just missing something here? I am so confused. This entire rule needs to be officially written and clarified as to it's real intent. Of coarse this is just an opinion, and as usual, I am probably so far off base that I should see a shrink.

Molson

Why would it be an issue if you walk up to the line with your make ready mag in your hand? Your magazine will be inserted in the pistol at Make Ready. Per 8.2.3, you are not allowed to have a loaded mag in hand (or gun in hand) after Standby. But prior to that it makes no difference according to the rules if you walk around the range all day with a loaded mag in your hand (except the safety area, of course) or in any pocket you want. But if you intend to use a mag from the pocket after the buzzer, it's placement becomes important.

Curtis

Edited: 'cause I hate typos!

Yeah, I do not see why it would be an issue either, and I would like to point out that the rule states "During the course of fire". Problem is I do not see why it would be a problem to use a magazine that you retrieve from your front pocket or for that matter from your waistband for make ready that others have pointed out either. It has been pointed out that depending on what division you are shooting in, it is possibly not legal to do so. So, if these are not legal, why would carrying that make ready magazine in your hand be legal? It is going to be carried in front of you, or at least in front of your holster and specifically designed magazine carriers at some point, making that mode of carry illegal. I know, it makes no sense.

Another poster has pointed out that stowing a magazine in your front pocket after unload and show clear also bumps you to open. Again, this makes absolutely no sense.

Again, this rule needs to be clarified and perhaps rewritten to remove any confusion. Different people are interpreting this rule differently. And this is going to be a problem from match to match, RO to RO, and competitor to competitor. I can see that this may very well be big problem for many. Bumped to open because I removed my make ready magazine from my front pocket? Bumped to open because I stowed my magazine after unload and show clear in my front pocket? I hope we get some wordage added to that rule to clarify the intent.

Cheers!

The wording "During the course of fire" does raise a question, in hindsight, because according to 8.3.1, the Make Ready command is the beginning of the COF. "After the start signal" might be a better choice of terms and would adequately address the issue without raising the sort of problems of interpretation you're worried about.

The new rule seems designed to specifically address a slight gray area of interpretation of the rulebook regarding retrieval of magazines from the pocket for reloads...now this is specifically addressed as permitted, BUT there are still restrictions based on equipment requirements in a division like Production that requires all magazines and the holster to be behind the front of the hipbones. All this means is that IF you do use a magazine from the pocket for a reload after the beep (which is how I would interpret the intent of the rule as a CRO), that it was located as required by any restrictions in your division's equipment requirements. I usually keep my Make Ready mag with 11 rounds—I'm a Production competitor—in the front "cell phone" pocket on my 5.11s.

The key is whether you are using this magazine for a reload after the beep. Stowing a magazine in your front pocket after unload and show clear bumps you to Open? Have you used this magazine for a reload during the COF? Would holding the magazine in your hand after If You are Finished Unload and Show Clear bump you Open...Of course not. You have to retrieve the magazine for a reload from a location not permitted, i.e. in front of the hipbone, after the beep and before Unload and Show Clear to get the ticket to Open.

This rule is rather straightforward in correcting a gray area and I really don't see any problem from any R.O. with basic familiarity with the rulebook and this issue.

If I'm wrong, I'm sure we'll both be corrected in short order...that's the great thing about a forum regularly visited by the NROI's instructor cadre.

Curtis

Edited for clarity and to address an additional point.

Curtis,

As far as this rule being a fairly large problem from the standpoint of interpretation, I really want to be proved wrong, and most likely will. I also agree with you about the NROI instructors visiting this forum being a huge benefit. If nothing else, maybe they can take this back to the rules committee and make this slightly more clear. I just want to also point out that at least one person opined that it is possible that at unload and show clear, magazine going into front pocket, may result in a move to open. I can not see the logic, but none the less, it has been stated. I don't know. I am just a simple guy that should not have even read this entire new rules discussion from the beginning. But I am also obsessive and want to be current on changes and the way the changes are applied to all. Maybe nobody is going to pay attention to this until they go to a major match, and this is where it will rear itself as a problem. Then again, maybe it will be put to rest before the shooting season takes off for the year up here. I will just sit it out and wait and see what shakes out.

Molson

[BayouSlide]

As far as this rule being a fairly large problem from the standpoint of interpretation, I really want to be proved wrong, and most likely will. I also agree with you about the NROI instructors visiting this forum being a huge benefit. If nothing else, maybe they can take this back to the rules committee and make this slightly more clear. I just want to also point out that at least one person opined that it is possible that at unload and show clear, magazine going into front pocket, may result in a move to open. I can not see the logic, but none the less, it has been stated. I don't know. I am just a simple guy that should not have even read this entire new rules discussion from the beginning. But I am also obsessive and want to be current on changes and the way the changes are applied to all. Maybe nobody is going to pay attention to this until they go to a major match, and this is where it will rear itself as a problem. Then again, maybe it will be put to rest before the shooting season takes off for the year up here. I will just sit it out and wait and see what shakes out.

Molson

The most current rule revisions are full of issues that I've seen discussed at length—and sometimes intensively—on these forums. So people do pay attention to potential problems. Everyone's goal is the same—to keep a level playing field and apply rules fairly, consistently and in the best interest of the sport and its competitors. Personally, I always get a lot out of the discussions here and from comments like yours. As I always say, it's dry fire for ROs to keep us sharp, focused on the rules and their application in all sorts of circumstances so that we can do the job to the best of our abilities.

Curtis

Edited: 'cause I hate typos!

Edited March 9, 2010 by BayouSlide

[Gary Stevens]

The interesting thing for me is my x-ray glasses I bought in the comic book are broken. I can't tell if that magazine in the front pocket is in front of the point of the hip bone or not.

Don't guess I'll be making many (if any) of those calls.

[BayouSlide]

The interesting thing for me is my x-ray glasses I bought in the comic book are broken. I can't tell if that magazine in the front pocket is in front of the point of the hip bone or not.

Don't guess I'll be making many (if any) of those calls.

A deep front pocket would make a lousy mag pouch. Kinda hard to worry too much about penalizing a shooter when they've already done it themselves.

Curtis

[moverfive]

Gary and other BOD members reading this.....

.....here is a question that I have seen asked here before - WHY are rule changes introduced, voted on, and then implemented before the general membership has a chance to provide feedback? Why can't rule changes be introduced in Meeting A and then voted on in Meeting B, with the gap between those two meetings as a period for which to publish the proposed changes and allow membership feedback? Why the rush?

As with several items recently, it would seem that a rule change or anything changing how USPSA operates (short of confidential and other proprietary items obviously) has been met with a lot of resistance, has yielded some unintended consequences, and other not-so-positive responses that were ultimately re-voted on and/or were scrapped deep into the process.

So I ask - why is there not a period of time between the introduction of rule change and its final vote that allows the others to provide feedback?