Equipment Pot-stirring

[Ron Ankeny]

Kelly:

Now that the thread has taken a serious twist, I agree with you in a very large part. In fact, I just traded my Limited gun back to the builder in exchange for a single stack .38 Super. I did it because I really enjoy a single stack and the majority of our shooters (locally) shoot a 10 round pistol. The future of this sport is going to rely on new shooters coming in with 10 round guns and I feel like I need to support that. I'll shoot L10 major with my .45 and a little steel and minor with the .38 Super. Besides, there is a double dose of macho mojo in rocking and rolling with a good old 1911.  When I want to race, equipment wise and otherwise, I'll drag out the Open blaster.

[Flexmoney]

I truely hope this thread doesn't take a serious twist.  

[jkmccoy]

OK Flex,

We certainly don't want to be serious!!!

The single shot muzzle loader idea wouldn't really work. There are just too many variables. We would clearly wind up with another equipment race.

So...All shooters will use a single-shot break action pistol with an exposed hammer. Bolt action pistols will be specifically disallowed (no XP-100's, no Wichita's). The only cartridge allowed will be .38 Special. All shooters will use only factory loaded 158grn SWC ammunition (or ammunition loaded to factory specifications + or - 10fps). Spare ammunition will be carried in the shooter's pockets. Trigger work or other adjustments to change the factory settings will be specifically disallowed and at all matches every shooter will be required to disassemble his firearm and match officials will inspect the sear for evidence of tampering (polishing, shaping).

Guess what, I'll bet TGO still wins.

Seriously (sorry Flex), All of our moaning and groaning about what we would like to see in competition should be secondary to what is good for the sport. If we don't have new shooters, If people don't enjoy the competition, we won't survive. I like shooting. I really like USPSA competition. It needs to be FUN. It needs to be fun for as many people as possible.

(Edited by jkmccoy at 10:08 pm on Oct. 19, 2002)

[dirtypool40]

Ron, (and the rest of you)

I have the ultimate minor L10 Race gun, just sitting new from the gunsmith. Caspian, BarSto .38 Super.

Maybe I'll post it on the ads page...

[actionshooter]

Hey Ron, I think your pretty good at pot stirring,you mixed mine up like a blender

In my opinion the L10 and production divisions  were needed to keep the sport alive. BUT I also don't like the divisions spread so thin. If L10 and Limited were combined I would miss the hosability (I just made that up ) of limited,but it would virtually double the number of people shooting that division.

Steve

[Chuck D]

Four divisions huh? Open,Limited,Production and Revolver. Limited 10 gets folded into Limited division. Limited and Production guys load 10 only. Wheelgun guys deserve a place to play too. We'd have more of them if they didn't get pissed on all the time. Open guys.....get ready for Open 10, the supplies of Pre-Ban mags will run out sometime. Single Stack guys, if you want an all single stack sport join the 1911 Society. If you want to be competitive in the reloading department, practice those reloads. A side bar....If USPSA handled this issue once we got railroaded by the 1994 Crime Bill we wouldn't be discussing it now.

[Duane Thomas]

"Wheelgun guys deserve a place to play too. We'd have more of them if they didn't get pissed on all the time."

I disagree. Richard Bitow, one of the top revolver shooters in the country, summed it up well, I think, when he told me, and I paraphrase, "I'd like to see Revolver division grow but I doubt it will, at least any time soon. There just aren't that many people willing to put the time into learning to shoot a revolver really well. It's too labor intensive. Then you've the challenge of getting around Jerry Miculek..."

[Duane Thomas]

"Wheelgun guys deserve a place to play too. We'd have more of them if they didn't get pissed on all the time."

I disagree. Richard Bitow, one of the top revolver shooters in the country, summed it up well, I think, when he told me, and I paraphrase, "I'd like to see Revolver division grow but I doubt it will, at least any time soon. There just aren't that many people willing to put the time into learning to shoot a revolver really well. It's too labor intensive. Then you've the challenge of getting around Jerry Miculek..."

[Chuck D]

We have a choice of being inclusive or exclusive when it comes to Revolver Division. Some would shoot it for fun,some would be serious competitors. J.M. 's involvement is a non issue. Not everyone in the division is a G.M. and his winning the I.R.C. doesn't seem to hurt the matches attendance. Labor intensive? Shooting a Limited gun is just as labor intensive. That's a lame excuse if I ever heard one.

[spook]

I personally don't give a hoot about how revolver friendly stages are. When I look at a stage, I know in advance I will have to do more reloads than the guy with the open gun. I think it's a bit strange to design "revolver friendly"stages. First off, that takes the little practical stuff that's left in this sport out, and second, everybody has to deal with the same problem.

I think they should have three IPSC classes.

1) Open: Everything allowed (or just the way it is now).

2) Standard. The way it is now, but with a roud limit. Like Lim10 (which we don't have here in Europe), to make it a little less 1911 and glock class. Also, drop the .40 for major rule. It sucks. And this will make it more suitable for production guns as well.

3) Revolver. Hey, I shoot it. Biased, I know.

For all three classes: drop the major pf to 145, so everyone can shoot the same pf easily. If you want to make this sport bigger, you have to place people in the postion to immediately participate, without placing them in some kind of "beginner-class".

[DogmaDog]

Drop all the divisions.  Revamp the sport with:

A SPY division...sexy, concealable pistols only!  PPK, Sig 230, etc.  Bad SPY shooters can use Lugers and Broom-handle Mausers, but aren't allowed to ever hit anything.  Wear a tux or a sequined cocktail dress.  SO's instruct the shooter in a Russian accent.

John Woo division.  Everyone has to shoot 2 guns at once, and all shots must be fired when not in contact with the ground.  

Handgun Control, Inc. Division.  No "cop-killer" bullets or "assault weapons" allowed.  You have to wait 5 days between registering for the match, and shooting a stage.  If you don't hit all A's, your poor marksmanship is a menace to the public, and you are disqualified.  If you shoot all A's, you are a deadly assassin, a menace to the public, and should be disqualified and sent to jail.

Space Opera Division:  Only spaced-out raygun looking guns allowed.  They have to have weird gizmos like compensators, dot-scopes, weights, lightening cuts in the slide, shiny big magwells.  Magazine capacity as close to infinite as posible, but no magazines over 170mm long.  Everything is measured in metric units, because that's what "they" use in the future.  All weapons must exceed a 165 power factor, except that will be translated from (ft/sec*grains)/1000 to M/sec*grams...you know, cuz of the metric system.  

Grand prize is a Royale with cheese.

DDog

[Duane Thomas]

Space Opera Division: Gotta be shot with a Roth-Steyr 1907. Have you ever seen one of those things? Looks like something Ming the Merciless should be pointing at Flash Gordon.

I WANT one!

[tightloop]

How about a Boys from the Hood division.  all shooter have to shoot Glocks turned sideways and the first three rounds have to be in the ground.  No sights allowed to be mounted on the slide flats!!!

[lynn jones]

let's leave the system alone.

if we had these divisions in place years ago, there would be no IDPA and the USPSA would have more members.

lynn jones

L-843

(Edited by lynn jones at 3:32 pm on Nov. 1, 2002)

[Duane Thomas]

Oh pooh. You're no fun.

[tightloop]

Lynn

don't you know that IPSC stands for Irratible People Squabbling Constantly?  If they had not created divisions and a national class system, the sport would not have survived past 1987, that is not to say what they have now is perfect or even close to it.

[Chuck D]

Bravo, Lynn.

By the way, where do I sign up for the " Boyz in Da Hood" Division............

[noname]

---

Quote: from lynn jones on 4:31 pm on Nov. 1, 2002

if we had these divisions in place years ago, there would be no IDPA and the USPSA would have more members.

lynn jones

L-843

(Edited by lynn jones at 3:32 pm on Nov. 1, 2002)

---

Maybe. Some of the issues that IDPA shooters have with IPSC go beyond the equipment rules. I suspect that if the hardcore IDPA shooters only had the present IPSC/USPSA divisions, along with their rule structures, to choose from, and not IDPA, they would be shooting some other sport. I don't know what percentage of the IDPA shooters are crossing over to shoot IPSC too. I would guess that it is well below 50%.

[DogmaDog]

noname,

You're right.  I started in IDPA in San Diego, continued in Indiana, and now find myself in New Orleans with USPSA matches every weekend, but no IDPA clubs anywhere nearby...so I'm a crossover, I guess.  

See my recent post about shoot-through rules for some dissatisfaction.  

Still, the only good reason not to shoot both is if only one is available, or if there's so much of one available that you can shoot to your heart's content in just the one discipline.  

Hopefully I'll gain enough credibility in local clubs to start influencing stage designs, and import some of what's good about IDPA, and render inconsequential some of what's bad about IPSC.

I still vish to compete in ze shpy divizion, zough...vill ze so kallt Kahr piztol be sufficzient?  Und how eez my bow-tie/kamera?  Ees shtraight?  

Auf wiedersehen,

DogmaHund

(yeah, yeah, amend the spy division to allow any accent that is vaguely Russian or German)

[mcginnes]

If we're going to add a class, I'd like to see either a Rim-fire class or a Pistol-caliber Carbine class.

If we're going to ditch one, ditch Lim 10. Those who can want expensive junk on their guns can buy hi-caps and shoot limited. Those who don't want to buy hi-caps can shoot Production. But, score Production Major.

Think about it. Production is supposed to get new shooters into the sport, right?. Shooters who maybe aren't the most accurate, and we give them double the penelty for a B/C hit, and half the points for a D hit. If they would have gotten 80% of the available points shooting Major, they get only 60%-70% of the points shooting Minor. That's discourging, and that's no way to grow a sport. It's no fun to see your name below people you know you out-shot.

(Edited by mcginnes at 9:07 am on Nov. 15, 2002)

[ErikW]

If we accept the premise that Production is a "new blood" attraction, please consider the following argument for continuing to score the division Minor. Minor tips the scales a bit toward accuracy and away from speed. New shooters are often accurate but are seldom fast. Minor vs. Minor gets new shooters competitive more quickly, as it is easier to develop accuracy than to develop speed.

There is no "double the penalty for a B/C hit" and "half the points for a D hit." All Production shooters get the same points for the different scoring zones.

If your name is below someone in the results, you didn't out-shoot them. Unless maybe you're looking at combined division unofficial results, which is comparing apples to oranges.

As for "expensive junk" on Limited guns, well, that's just trolling.

[Flexmoney]

I also feel that minor shuld be minor.  That is part of the DVC thing.  

I like having Lim10 as well.  Lots of shooters like those single-stack 1911's.

[Jake Di Vita]

I have no problem with shooting minor in any division. In fact, shooting it in Limited really forces you to become better faster if you want to win.

[mcginnes]

First, I want to change my answer for new class. I'd like to see a CART class. On a given stage, all shooters would shoot the exact same gun, ammo and gear. Just bring an underbelt.

Sorry, I didn't mean to be a Troll. "Expensive stuff." (But this is "Equipment Pot-stiring," right?) On the other hand, Titanium strikers?

Generally speaking, I think Minor scoring is unbalanced and punitive. Yes, you should be able to go a little faster with the light recoil of a Minor round, but not much faster. If the scoring was perfectly balanced, we would see half of the top shooters shooting Minor. Instead, We see none. It is a disadvantage in overall standings. I'm not saying we should change Minor scoring, but putting that handicap on a division that is supposed to attract new shooters is not going to grow the sport.

I don't buy the New shooters are often accurate but are seldom fast. Minor vs. Minor gets new shooters competitive more quickly, as it is easier to develop accuracy than to develop speed argument. I don't know about you, but the first time I picked up a handgun, I could shoot pretty fast, but I couldn't hit anything. Besides, the game is speed and accuracy. To be competitive shooting Minor, you have to be just as fast, and more accurate. That's hard, especially for a new shooter. I've seen a new shooter, shooting Minor, zero a stage that he would not have had he been shooting Major. I've never seen him again.

And yes, I am looking at overall standings (isn't that why they're there?) If I didn't, I'd only be competing against 0-5 other people, and we almost always place in the same order. If I'm only going to look at Production standings, I might as well stay home.

But you are right, those results are unofficial. So, why not score Production Major? It's not going to change any official results. It is going to make it a little harder to zero a stage, and help new shooters be more competitive.

[Flexmoney]

since this is the "pot-stirring" thread...

Minor is minor.  It is wimpy.  It is easier to shoot.  Wimpy.  Wimpy.  Wimpy.

This game still has practical roots.  

DVC - Accuracy, POWER, Speed

Scoring Production as Major???  How would you compare your "unofficial" match results then?  Every other division has to make MAJOR to be scored MAJOR.

Now...if you wanted to make a plea for the B-hits in minor to be scored as 4 points instead of 3...I might be able to get behind that idea.