ErikW Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 No place for mid-speed single stackers? How about B class in Limited 10? The idea of a spec-gun division doesn't sit well with me. That's for GSSF or XD Challenge or something. Talk about stifling innovation! Leatham, Avery, and Bednorz, among others, kicked a whole lot of widebody ass in L10 at the Factory Gun Nationals without the aid of silly rules about bushings and what not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 Talk about stiring the pot. I hate this thread! I wish it would disappear. I also wish the 94 Clinton Crime Bill would disapear. Without it, and it's 10 round limit, non of this would matter. Us gun people are in a debate...with each other because of the gun grabbers! How sad is that? And...just as they hoped...hicaps are cost prohibitive. Ok, without the Clinton CB, single-stacks are non-competitive. Kinda like single-action revolvers. They are still great guns, but not the first thing you want to strap on if going around the world and getting into the mix. I shoot a double wide gun (Glock), but I joined the Single Stack Society. I don't want to see a single stack division in USPSA however. The SS guns are more than competitive in Lim10. I wouldn't mind seeing Limited 10 going to Limited 8. We shoot a few local matches with that format. It rewards accuracy in an 8 round array (no hosing). Revolvers...be cool to see guys shooting them in Open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRNinTX Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 Flex, At one of our local matches this summer Rudi Waldinger, of FGN shoot off fame, brought his Open revolver and won the match! He is amazing to watch, nothing but A's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 That's what I'm talking about...coolness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherErik Posted October 17, 2002 Share Posted October 17, 2002 I aggree with Erik Warren. Dump revolver. They have ICORE, a revolver specific sport. Ever watch a wheel gunner shooter shoot a match were the majority of the stages were over 40 rounds? A 20 second open or limited run truns into a 120 second run for a revolver. Erik- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted October 17, 2002 Share Posted October 17, 2002 It's not too bad with 6 round neutral arrays. But then it sucks for the L10 or Production shooters because they have to make a whole bunch of extra reloads. Revolvers and IPSC just don't mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherErik Posted October 17, 2002 Share Posted October 17, 2002 Perhaps then they should change the rules to allow 8 shot revolvers. There then woulden't be any moaning about course desgin. Erik- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Bagoly Posted October 17, 2002 Share Posted October 17, 2002 The problem is that too many think that Revolver Friendly = 6 shot arrays. Its just not so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted October 17, 2002 Share Posted October 17, 2002 (with much trepidation) If all revo guys are shooting 6 round wheelguns, then every course is revolver friendly. This is a pot stirrer, right? SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherErik Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 What happens if there is a port with 4 targets behind it the shoot 3 and then have to do a standing reload and then shoot the 1 remaining target. thats not very "friendly". IF you only put 3 targets behind that port and 3 targets on the nexty aray the L10 and PRO guys say " the course doesnt flow well" or "I have to do too many reloads" Lets get rid of all the divisions and start using single shot muzzle loaders. only then it would be fair to all. Erik- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 I think SA meant that it is all revolver friendly because only revolvers compete against revolvers. There are stages that are extremely hard on us L10 and Prod shooters too, but it comes with the territory of shooting that specific division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkmccoy Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 I like the single shot muzzle loader idea...make the playing field absolutely level for everyone. Of course, you would have to specify only loose powder (no paper cartridges), no pre-cut patches, and no capping tools (assuming that we would have another division for flintlocks, and another division for matchlocks). We would also need to decide whether set-triggers would be allowed. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 My first love was revolver. I shoot a wheel gun exceptionally well, but when I went to USPSA shooting the wheelguns went into the safe. Fact is, the best gun for this type of shooting is an Open hi-cap. followed by the hi-cap Limited pistol. Next down the list (assuming good course design) is the ten round bunch. Erik is right, revolvers and IPSC are a bad mix. OTOH, revolvers and IDPA get along pretty well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 Jake is right on. If you're shootin' a wheelie and tring to win limited, then the course is unfriendly to you. But all the six shooters have the same problem. I had to shoot four and reload in production in both of my last two matches. I practice a lot of reloads and it doesn't bother me at all to drop a mag with 6 rounds in it. Seems like course designers are putting 12 shots in an array just to mess with us. I am looking forward to shooting some open with, what, 28, 29 rounds? Cool. To win your division, it doesn't matter. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRNinTX Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 I agree that within your division it doesn't matter, everyone is on a level playing fieild. However, the Powers to Be in USPSA must make that distinction if they are truly serious about divisions standing on their own. It was discouraging at FGN to see the higher places in Prod and Rev go to the prize table at #100 and above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Bagoly Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 Quote: from TheOtherErik on 5:17 pm on Oct. 17, 2002 What happens if there is a port with 4 targets behind it the shoot 3 and then have to do a standing reload and then shoot the 1 remaining target. thats not very "friendly". IF you only put 3 targets behind that port and 3 targets on the nexty aray the L10 and PRO guys say " the course doesnt flow well" or "I have to do too many reloads" So have 3 ports. Put 3 targets at the 1st port, 1 at the second, and 2 at the third port. Revo guys are happy, no standing reloads. Yes, it does matter. 10 Rnd. guys are happy, they don't have to reload every time they move. The guys who only know how to hose the stupid 8 shot arrays are not happy. They will have to grow up sometime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actionshooter Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 I have never been a big fan of revolver friendly stages,why bend over backwards to design a stage when on a good day you have 2 guy out of 40 shooting revolver. Its to PC for me (your never going to make everyone happy). Also I agree with combining Limited and L-10 into straight L10. (this comes from a guy who shoots an SV and has a grand in mags!!) Lets get some competition back!! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 If L10 and Limited were combined, I say make it single stacks only. Afterall, if guys shoot L10 with wide body 6 inch pistols, long dust covers, mag wells the size of a five gallon bucket, tungsten sleeved barrels, tungsten guide rods, etc., the equipment race hasn't changed a bit. As for competiton, it all boils down to being a big frog in a small pond. Want competition? Then move up to GM and go to major matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 here here!!! Ron has it right. I am composing my own little dissertation for the "I Hate" page and it centers around small fish finding ever smaller ponds in which to look big. I know some folks are at the highest point they are able to shoot with a "C" card and others start there. That's why there needs to be a "C" class (and "D" and "A" and so on). I can see the major distinction for OPEN, LIMITED and even PRODUCTION, but the way we cut it all up (like the public schools do; "making every child feel equally special" ) is a little ridiculous. No, you can't have just a few winners, it implies the other little children are the losers. No, it's competition and Americans (IPSC shooters inparticular) used to thrive on it. I am not a super squadder, but it makes me nuts when folks say your score doesn't count or matter because you are not in their class. They are happy to simmer along at the top of one of the middle classes rather than work a little harder, move up and start worrying about did they win the whole match not.... "Oh yeah? Well, I was 1st LEO, Lady, Junior shooting minor in Open class, with my revolver". This sport USED to be about competition improving the breed. Carry guns and "tactical" shooting techniques have come out of the dark ages because of what USPSA shooters did in this country, wide open TRYING TO WIN!!! Not trying to eeck out a "justifyable" "C" class victory so they could win the trophy (or trip to the prize table) but still stay out of "B". Try as we might with our quotas and sanctions and "equal opportunity" the real world has one class, wether it's shooting or not. Some come out to "just have fun" and that's fine. Don't keep score and don't sweat the smalls. But when it comes time to compete? Come to beat EVERYONE or stay home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actionshooter Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 Boy, a little testy Ron? The thread requested a pot-stirring. Looks like I have achieved. Moving up to Grand Master,and shooting major matches? That would be competition alright. An achievable goal? Sure I believe if you have no family, unlimited time, large source of cash and the drive most people can do it. Dosen't seem an attainable goal for me (at this time in my life). So lets get real OK. By bringing some competition back,I was in reference to 6 classes and 5 divisions and all the foriegn military female combinations you could shoot by yourself and win something every match-----THAT IS STUPID!!! By reducing divisions it puts more people together! I don't believe (though I would like too),that you could eliminate classes and shoot heads up-- The organizaton would die. I am I still achieving?? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 ROTFLMAO. Nah not testy, just stirring the pot. This thread is killing me. We all have our individual agendas and goals and I can respect that, with the exception of sandbaggers and class managers who manipulate the system for the purpose of self-aggrandizement. The smart remark about GM and major matches was an exaggeration meant to elicit thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvinez Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 1) as much as I hate to say it since I shoot mostly Limited, Dump Limited into Lim10. 2) Modified Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 Single-stacks suck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 God gave man double stacks so he didn't have to shoot single stacks. at what point are we a sport on the cutting edge of technology, or a nostalgic group of socializers (ie cowboy action shooting) i laughed my ass off when limited 10 came along, yeah, i shot 4 classifiers and am a B class limited 10 shooter.. B class, did i say that... yeah, another "watermark" to judge people by. Dump limited 10, if they want to shoot limited with a single stack. I agree with Ron i see people shooting L10, and Production to hide from being in the top 20% of limited shooters. Yes, i shoot production a lot,because i liked a beretta.. or SHOT, because i'm sick of winning a class with 8 people in it, i want the HOA title/award so i'm going limited. There is ONE winner not 5 or 6. i still think having 2 seperate Nationals is kind of lame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkmccoy Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 The various opinions expressed here are quite interesting. Even more interesting is the difference in the opinions when the original question is different. When I asked if other divisions (specifically L10 and Production) were necessary the general consensus was that we need the divisions to keep the sport alive... http://www.brianenos.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard...164&start=0 When the question was regarding "Equipment elitism" the general consensus was that "it's the shooter, not the equipment"... http://www.brianenos.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard...166&start=0 Now, several people want to dump all the divisions and "just shoot". As I tried to point out with my (sarcastic) comment about muzzle loaders - there will always be an equipment race. Even if we limit our sport to just one particular brand/model of pistol, there will still be replacement parts that might provide some advantage. Some shooters will still try to gain an advantage through purchasing equipment (rather than/in addition to practicing shooting). I like having divisions and classes (despite my earlier post). I like shooting a limited pistol. I like being able to place well against other shooters of similar ability (in my class). My goal is still to "win" the match, but along the way it is nice to know how I am doing relative to other shooters of similar skills. Ultimately, no matter what any of us would prefer regarding classes/divisions/equipment, shouldn't we all support whatever set of rules will attract the greatest number of shooters to our sport and result in the greatest satisfaction for those shooters? Isn't our basic goal to enjoy shooting? For those of you that don't believe in classes...You may or may not win some award in your class, you are free to ignore it. Just concentrate on your overall placement. If you don't believe in divisions...ask the scorekeeper for a printout of the order of finish with all divisions merged. Although it is clearly against USPSA rules, the option exists within the scoring program. (I keep score for lots of matches.) And no matter what you wish regarding divisions/classes/equipment...HAVE FUN! Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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