Substitute for N350

[CDPMatt]

What is a good substitute for N350.... it's getting pretty expensive and impossible for me to find locally. I am currently running a 5" Bedell custom 38SC with no holes in the bbl. 124gr MG JHP, 8.2gr of N350 @1.245" Remington small rifle primer and this yields me 172pf. A few guys in the club run True Blue but they all have holes in their bbl's. We get a good deal on it here locally and it's readily available. I want to switch to something a little cheaper and more available without changing the way the gun shoots, is this possible? I searched and there is a wealth of powder info here, a little too much for an Open Noob to make sense of as far as which powders are similar, speed, pressure, dot tracking,etc.

Thanks,

Matt

[CocoBolo]

What is a good substitute for N350.... it's getting pretty expensive and impossible for me to find locally. I am currently running a 5" Bedell custom 38SC with no holes in the bbl. 124gr MG JHP, 8.2gr of N350 @1.245" Remington small rifle primer and this yields me 172pf. A few guys in the club run True Blue but they all have holes in their bbl's. We get a good deal on it here locally and it's readily available. I want to switch to something a little cheaper and more available without changing the way the gun shoots, is this possible? I searched and there is a wealth of powder info here, a little too much for an Open Noob to make sense of as far as which powders are similar, speed, pressure, dot tracking,etc.

Thanks,

Matt

True Blue is about as close to N350 as anything I have tried. TrueBlue does produce a little more pressure than N350 and it is not as clean. I was running 8.0 N350 with 124gr mtg with 5" NPH and EGW comp and the equivalent load with TruBlue was 8.3gr. Feels was very similar. I run a 1.235-1.240 OAL with JHP. Check for pressure signs especially above 8.3 with mtg 124.

[XRe]

If you're not concerned about staying closer to SAAMI spec pressure (N350 is already pretty high, anyway), 7625 is the powder you want. Cleaner than N350, very cheap. 4756 is another good choice - lower pressure, but requires a little more powder (9-ish grains instead of 8-ish), so it evens out - even cleaner and cheaper, and your load would basically be SAAMI spec.

Have you asked Dan what substitute you should use in that gun?

[CDPMatt]

If you're not concerned about staying closer to SAAMI spec pressure (N350 is already pretty high, anyway), 7625 is the powder you want. Cleaner than N350, very cheap. 4756 is another good choice - lower pressure, but requires a little more powder (9-ish grains instead of 8-ish), so it evens out - even cleaner and cheaper, and your load would basically be SAAMI spec.

Have you asked Dan what substitute you should use in that gun?

No but I will shortly....

[Pezco]

I would recommend the 3N38. I currently run this load in my Bedell shorty SC at 10.0 grs with WSR primers. This setup makes 171 PF at 1.24 OAL and is flat as the day is long.

I would recommend looking for cost savings elsewhere as the powder cost per shot with either 350 or 3N38 is < .003$/shot

[Flatland Shooter]

In 9 Major I went from HS-6 to N-350. Loads were very similar. I switched solely because the VV powder was so much cleaner than that nasty HS-6.

Bill

[lcs]

What is a good substitute for N350.... it's getting pretty expensive and impossible for me to find locally. I am currently running a 5" Bedell custom 38SC with no holes in the bbl. 124gr MG JHP, 8.2gr of N350 @1.245" Remington small rifle primer and this yields me 172pf. A few guys in the club run True Blue but they all have holes in their bbl's. We get a good deal on it here locally and it's readily available. I want to switch to something a little cheaper and more available without changing the way the gun shoots, is this possible? I searched and there is a wealth of powder info here, a little too much for an Open Noob to make sense of as far as which powders are similar, speed, pressure, dot tracking,etc.

Thanks,

Matt

I use Silhouette for practice in 38SC and N350 for matches. For 121 MG at 170, I can't tell the difference in feel. Once the N350 is gone, will probably switch to Sil fulltime.

Edited February 8, 2010 by FullRace

[LPatterson]

Ramshot has a new pamphlet out for their powders and a 5" barrel w/115SIE is listed @7.3 1247 8.1 1386 35,960 1.240. 124HDY 6.8 1179 7.6 1310 35,270 1.270 with Silhoutte. YMMV

[RH45]

I've tried 105, 337, 338, 350, and IMR 4756 in my Bedell "Shorty", in .38 SC, and settled on VV N-350 as my primary powder, and IMR 4756 as a "back-up" powder.

If you go to IMR 4756, get a BIG can because it varies from lot to lot.

[outerlimits]

there is no substitute!

[werewolf45auto]

I could not tell any difference between the N350 and Silhouette (little dirtier) and the Silhouete is much cheaper and easier do get.

[G-ManBart]

What is a good substitute for N350.... it's getting pretty expensive and impossible for me to find locally. I am currently running a 5" Bedell custom 38SC with no holes in the bbl. 124gr MG JHP, 8.2gr of N350 @1.245" Remington small rifle primer and this yields me 172pf. A few guys in the club run True Blue but they all have holes in their bbl's. We get a good deal on it here locally and it's readily available. I want to switch to something a little cheaper and more available without changing the way the gun shoots, is this possible? I searched and there is a wealth of powder info here, a little too much for an Open Noob to make sense of as far as which powders are similar, speed, pressure, dot tracking,etc.

Thanks,

Matt

Matt,

When I talked to Dan about powders/loads for my Bedell we sort of got off topic a little and he said he could tell virtually no difference between guns with the popple holes and those without when using the same ammo. If True Blue is available and cheap, why not grab a pound from one of your buds and see how it works?

Like XRe, I immediately thought of 7625 and 4756 when I saw the thread title. The 4756 would probably soften up the gun a little and might give you a bit less dot rise....that extra bit of powder and a fair amount more gas volume to work the comp. Quite a few folks are using Longshot as well in SC, so that's another to consider. R,

[XRe]

When I talked to Dan about powders/loads for my Bedell we sort of got off topic a little and he said he could tell virtually no difference between guns with the popple holes and those without when using the same ammo.

This is a bit of drift, but... I notice a pretty big difference between the same setup with and without ports. I proved it to myself again this weekend in fairly scientific fashion (planning on writing it up, as soon as I can take pictures for the writeup ... tomorrow, hopefully). In some cases, the exact setup will control the extent of the difference, and the load choice will definitely cause more or less difference between the two in that setup. Some people don't seem to notice it, and can shoot just about anything equally well. Some people are more... discriminating (??) or sensitive to those differences?

Anyway...

Like XRe, I immediately thought of 7625 and 4756 when I saw the thread title. The 4756 would probably soften up the gun a little and might give you a bit less dot rise....that extra bit of powder and a fair amount more gas volume to work the comp.

Actually, based on my experience, I'd expect 7625 to be softer than N350 with around the same flip - maybe a tiny bit more, but may actually drive the gun more consistently (ie, the dot tends to be more stable). 4756 should hit harder in the hand and will be blastier (more gas == more concussion, sorry... ), but will be flatter than N350 (a flatter recoil profile seems to go in hand with a harder push in the hand, for what are probably fairly obvious reasons). However.... YMMV ... again, based on the hardware in question. For instance, when I switched from my Viper to the 5" Brazos Pro Series gun, I found the reverse was true - 7625 shot like s*** in that gun, but the gun was designed to shoot a lower pressure, higher gas volume load, and ran best on N105. The Viper, on the other hand, was built for old major, and wanted relatively higher pressure, and it ate 7625 up like it was going out of style. The new gun used the same design ethic, and seems to like the snot out of N105, too... (have pity on my checkbook! )

[G-ManBart]

[ This is a bit of drift, but... I notice a pretty big difference between the same setup with and without ports. I proved it to myself again this weekend in fairly scientific fashion (planning on writing it up, as soon as I can take pictures for the writeup ... tomorrow, hopefully). In some cases, the exact setup will control the extent of the difference, and the load choice will definitely cause more or less difference between the two in that setup. Some people don't seem to notice it, and can shoot just about anything equally well. Some people are more... discriminating (??) or sensitive to those differences?

Yeah, it certainly could be a perception thing. The only Bedell shorty that I can remember shooting that was otherwise identical to mine, but had the popple holes, was in 9mm, so I couldn't draw any comparison. I just recall asking Dan about the popple holes and he said he couldn't see a difference, but that may have been him, or the ammo he was using.

Actually, based on my experience, I'd expect 7625 to be softer than N350 with around the same flip - maybe a tiny bit more, but may actually drive the gun more consistently (ie, the dot tends to be more stable). 4756 should hit harder in the hand and will be blastier (more gas == more concussion, sorry... ), but will be flatter than N350 (a flatter recoil profile seems to go in hand with a harder push in the hand, for what are probably fairly obvious reasons). However.... YMMV ... again, based on the hardware in question. For instance, when I switched from my Viper to the 5" Brazos Pro Series gun, I found the reverse was true - 7625 shot like s*** in that gun, but the gun was designed to shoot a lower pressure, higher gas volume load, and ran best on N105. The Viper, on the other hand, was built for old major, and wanted relatively higher pressure, and it ate 7625 up like it was going out of style. The new gun used the same design ethic, and seems to like the snot out of N105, too... (have pity on my checkbook! )

I shot a bit of 7625 with 125s out of my Bedell shorty when I first got it. I then loaded the same bullet and oal with N350 and definitely noticed it was clearly flatter at the same (roughly) PF. I thought they felt about the same in straight back recoil, but I'm not overly sensitive to that, so it might have been just me. N105 is definitely flatter in both guns and while I think it has nearly the same amount of total recoil movement, it seems to be a softer impulse. Derek tested my MC gun with 4756 and he said he was amazed how soft and flat is shot, I just haven't gotten around to testing it since I bit the bullet and ordered 16lbs of N105 after the famous shortage a while back! This is definitely a "ain't broke, not fixin' it" situation for me...other than a wallet that must hate PV

[CDPMatt]

I asked Dan in an email this evening and he said that he had heard good things about Autocomp but had not tried it. He also said he had good results with 7625 in SC.... I may try the True Blue just cuz I can get it for cheap locally from my bullet guy and I'll also check the availability of the 7625.

Edited February 9, 2010 by CDPMatt

[G-ManBart]

I asked Dan in an email this evening and he said that he had heard good things about Autocomp but had not tried it. He also said he had good results with 7625 in SC.... I may try the True Blue just cuz I can get it for cheap locally from my bullet guy and I'll also check the availability of the 7625.

Yeah, there is one guy locally who's running Autocomp in his .38SC and really liking it. I don't recall the exact load, but it was in the high 7.something range...almost 8gr, but not quite. R,

[XRe]

Yeah, there is one guy locally who's running Autocomp in his .38SC and really liking it. I don't recall the exact load, but it was in the high 7.something range...almost 8gr, but not quite. R,

I wonder what his primers look like.... Bob Londrigan did some testing with Autocomp and found significant pressure signs before he got to 165 PF w/ 125gr bullets and regular .38 Super....

[CocoBolo]

Yeah, there is one guy locally who's running Autocomp in his .38SC and really liking it. I don't recall the exact load, but it was in the high 7.something range...almost 8gr, but not quite. R,

I wonder what his primers look like.... Bob Londrigan did some testing with Autocomp and found significant pressure signs before he got to 165 PF w/ 125gr bullets and regular .38 Super....

The early shooter feedback on AutoComp was bad, almost everyone that tried it said you couldn't make major with it in a 38 Super. I passed on it. Now nearly 2 years later a lot of shooters are posting good posts about it and are using it even in 9 major. I know the guns didn't change did they change the formula or does it vary huge by lot?

I did say that TruBlue shoots very similar to N350, I however did not say I would recommend either. I hit it I quit it, TruBlue shot ok but too much pressure at barely minor, plus it varies lot to lot +-.3gr, on the plus side the FPS was the most consistent I have ever loaded. N350 a little too violent in my gun. Went the more gass route AA#7 cheap,dirty,full of gas, hard to meter,(sounds like a woman taking about a man) but ok on Hornady. I don't recommend AA#7 either, I have 3 more pounds then its history. N105 or 3N38, I'll save enough on cleaning products to make up the difference in price.

[XRe]

The early shooter feedback on AutoComp was bad, almost everyone that tried it said you couldn't make major with it in a 38 Super. I passed on it. Now nearly 2 years later a lot of shooters are posting good posts about it and are using it even in 9 major.

I think we expected it might work decently in Major 9. I haven't heard anything else about it - them reformulating it or anything.

I know the guns didn't change did they change the formula or does it vary huge by lot?

N105 or 3N38, I'll save enough on cleaning products to make up the difference in price.

Don't count on it... N105 and 3N38 are both kinda gunky... though it's the kind of gunk that just wipes off later, not the kind that requires chemical warfare...

[CDPMatt]

Yeah, one guy at our club is using Autocomp for 9 Major but no one uses it for SC yet.... they are all cheap and use True Blue or AA#7.

[matt2ace]

I just completed work with AutoComp comparing it to AA7 and my current Silhouette load in 9 major. Autocomp easily made major PF. From other postings on this forum, I see no reason that you could not make major in 38S/SC with AutoComp using something very close to the load posted below.

All were shot through a 5-inch gun, AET 9x19 barrel, Gans #12 comp (3 up, 2-side)

Powder Grains Bul Wt type OAL Case Primer Avg Vel PF

AA#7 9.8 124 CMJ MGD 1.185 FP Wolf SPM 1324 164.176

AA#7 10.0 124 CMJ MGD 1.185 FP Wolf SPM 1347 167.028

AA#7 10.2 124 CMJ MGD 1.185 FP Wolf SPM 1367 169.508

Silhouette 7.7 124 CMJ MGD 1.185 FP Wolf SPM 1359 168.516

Win AutoComp 6.4 124 CMJ MGD 1.185 FP Wolf SPM 1242 154.008

Win AutoComp 6.6 124 CMJ MGD 1.185 FP Wolf SPM 1281 158.844

Win AutoComp 7.0 124 CMJ MGD 1.185 FP Wolf SPM 1341 166.284

Win AutoComp 7.2 124 CMJ MGD 1.185 FP Wolf SPM 1360 168.64

Forgive the formatting, I don't seem to be able to get the columns to line

up properly

Edited February 11, 2010 by matt2ace

[Glockcomma]

Matt;

How did those powders compare as far as softer, flatter, cleaner? I use Silhouette in my 9mm major, AA#7 in my 38SC and am getting some AutoComp tomorrow. I would like to find one powder I could use in both without sacrificing performance.

Thanks Tim

Edited February 11, 2010 by Glockcomma

[matt2ace]

Tim,

I can only give you first impressions for AA7 and AutoComp. I have only shot 100-200 rounds with each.

AA7 seems to be the softest shooting of the powders with AutoComp and Silhouette about equal. Dot movmeent is very similar for AA7 and AutoComp both being a bit less 'jittery' than Silhouette IMHO. I think AutoComp is the cleanest in my limited experience. I never found Silhouette to be very dirty in my opinion and I think AA7 may be a closer to Silhouette than AutoComp for cleanliness.

I am loading up 500-600 rounds of each so I can make a better side-by-side comparision on the range over the next couple of months.

[XRe]

Tim,I never found Silhouette to be very dirty in my opinion and I think AA7 may be a closer to Silhouette than AutoComp for cleanliness.

In Major 9.... Every Silhouette load I've seen in .38 Super has been nasty, with a lot of corn mealing, etc.... There's a big difference in internal ballistics between those two cartridges, and powders that work in one do not necessarily work in the other

[matt2ace]

As I said, my only experience is 9 major.

The large difference in case volume and resulting burn dynamics between 9 and 38S/SC could explain the difference in experience. I know people shooting 9 major guns configured with barrel holes who find Silhoutte to be way to dirty. I have witnessed at least one gun that jams from dirt consistently after 125-150 rounds of Silhouette loads making 170PF.

Edited February 11, 2010 by matt2ace