Unload and show clear!

[Chris Christian]

I'm not certain what is necessary about the "flip N catch" in the ULSC procedure. I do know that it places the gun's ejection port facing upwards (where both the shooter and SO/RO are looking right at it from a relatively close range) and requires a forceful racking of the slide to propel the round far enough into the air for the shooter to catch it in their weak hand (primers don't pop without energy/force applied to them.... if they did we'd all be injured by just routinely handling our ammo). This procedure does create the possibility of the primer popping when the live chambered round is vigorously moved to the rear where the ejector is. The "flip N catch" is not a necessary procedure to ULSC. But, it does create an unnecessary potential for injury to both the shooter and the SO/RO. I find it strange that some shootrs are not only defending it, but advocating it. Seems to me to be a case of "style over substance".

Chris Christian

[Jim Norman]

Aristotle,

Running, Shooting on the move, reloading on the move are all an integral part of USPSA Shooting. Remove them and we have a glorified Bullseye Match.

Flip & Catch on ULSC is not a necessary part of competing in USPSA, it is done essentially 'Off The Clock' unless you screw it up, in which case it still counts, as a DQ.

Now, I am sure, or perhaps I should say I am hoping that your previous post(s) was/were tongue-in-cheek. If not, I suppose that you might conceivably be a candidate for PPC, , Steel, Pins, or Bullseye, but you certainly won't go far in USPSA style shooting.

Jim

[BlackSabbath]

There are 2 good reasons this should be outlawed:

1. If there is an out of battery discharge, shooters/ros can, have and will be injured no matter what speed you unload the gun in an upright position. The solution is simple. Write a rule that requires the shooter to rotate the ejection port towards the ground, so if it happens, the blast goes down thereby taking the blast away from the ro's/shooters faces.

2. When a shooter does the flip and catch, it takes their attention from where it belongs...the gun. That's unsafe. There are plenty of vids on youtube that prove that fact.

This IS a safety issue that doesn't affect anyone's scores. If, and when someone is injured, or worse, the lawsuit will read... "Knew, or should've known..."

We know. Let's fix it.

Edited February 4, 2010 by BlackSabbath

[Aristotle]

Aristotle,

Running, Shooting on the move, reloading on the move are all an integral part of USPSA Shooting. Remove them and we have a glorified Bullseye Match.

Flip & Catch on ULSC is not a necessary part of competing in USPSA, it is done essentially 'Off The Clock' unless you screw it up, in which case it still counts, as a DQ.

Now, I am sure, or perhaps I should say I am hoping that your previous post(s) was/were tongue-in-cheek. If not, I suppose that you might conceivably be a candidate for PPC, , Steel, Pins, or Bullseye, but you certainly won't go far in USPSA style shooting.

Jim

Hi Jim,

They were all absolutely tounge in cheek.

Anyhow, I'll leave this dead horse be.

I sure can't wait till spring. :-)

Edited February 4, 2010 by Aristotle

[Chills1994]

We could just stay hot between stages, and NOT do the "Unload and show clear" thing at the end of the stage. The RO could say something like, "If you are finished, reload as necessary, apply safety or decock, and HOLSTER!" And once holstered the RO could declare, "The range is clear....Time is fourteen ninety two!".

[CHA-LEE]

Are we really wasting more time on this subject? Don’t we have better things to worry about?

[Jim Norman]

Well it is all fun and games until someone walks with scissors and pokes their eye out.

Seriously, there is apparently a lot of opinion regarding this act, Flip & Catch.

I have stated that I feel it is Showboating and should be discouraged and even ruled against.

Other have said that they feel it is safer than a simple rack and roll.

I have seen a detonation. Nasty. It was actually a short round in a Glock if memory serves, but that aside.

Roll the gun DOWN, ejection port facing AWAY from the EYES and FACE. drop the round, roll it into your hand, your choice.

A detonation with the gun rolled away from your face is a lot less likely to end your career as a shooter than one pointing the ejection port up towards your face.

In either case I'd rather not have to suffer a detonation, but I think that having some brass pulled from my hand ranks a lot higher on my 'If I have to get an injury list' than having the same bras pulled out of what is left of my eyeball.

Jim

[Chris Christian]

Yup...+1 to Norman... my thoughts exactly. Especially if I'm the SO/RO that wasn't even shooting the COF. I can accept an injury caused by my own stupidity. I can get really irked when my injury was caused by someone elses stupidity.

Chris Christian

[badchad]

I've been shooting USPSA since 1989. I hope this practice is outlawed in the rules before someone is seriously injured.

Does this mean you have been shooting USPSA since 1989 and in 21 years nobody has been seriously injured by this technique?

[BlackSabbath]

I've been shooting USPSA since 1989. I hope this practice is outlawed in the rules before someone is seriously injured.

Does this mean you have been shooting USPSA since 1989 and in 21 years nobody has been seriously injured by this technique?

Yawn....

[bdpaz]

Part of my twisted fascination with this entire thread is that few people seem to be concerned with the safety of anything other than flip & catch. There are several reliable reports of detonations when slowly racking the slide, so why isn't the same shock and outrage directed at those who hold the gun close to their face and slowly rack the slide to eject the live round and show clear in one step (while the RO also has his face close to the gun trying to see when the chamber is clear)?

I personally don't feel the need to be right on top of the shooter during whatever method is used. Once they have the chamber clear and are holding back the slide, then I'll lean in and and look.

[badchad]

I've been shooting USPSA since 1989. I hope this practice is outlawed in the rules before someone is seriously injured.

Does this mean you have been shooting USPSA since 1989 and in 21 years nobody has been seriously injured by this technique?

Yawn....

I'll take that as a yes. Thanks.

[Flexmoney]

Part of my twisted fascination with this entire thread is that few people seem to be concerned with the safety of anything other than flip & catch. There are several reliable reports of detonations when slowly racking the slide, so why isn't the same shock and outrage directed at those who hold the gun close to their face and slowly rack the slide to eject the live round and show clear in one step (while the RO also has his face close to the gun trying to see when the chamber is clear)?

That is a great observation, fwiw. Kinda reminds me of a thread we had on shooters that wore their hats backwards. People...seriously...didn't like that.

I personally don't feel the need to be right on top of the shooter during whatever method is used. Once they have the chamber clear and are holding back the slide, then I'll lean in and and look.

I was going to bring that up. I am glad you did. I need a real good reason to be right up in the shooters back pocket. Otherwise...I want to stay back (as much as ensuring the timer picks up the shots will allow).

[BlackSabbath]

I've been shooting USPSA since 1989. I hope this practice is outlawed in the rules before someone is seriously injured.

Does this mean you have been shooting USPSA since 1989 and in 21 years nobody has been seriously injured by this technique?

Yawn....

I'll take that as a yes. Thanks.

Take it any way you want to. I know a shooter that took a piece of .40 lead to the chest from a high primer/long ejector. He had to go to the ER to have it taken out.

Some of us have been around a little longer than you.

[BlackSabbath]

And,

To keep it easy on Flex, you and I are done, Chad.

[badchad]

Take it any way you want to. I know a shooter that took a piece of .40 lead to the chest from a high primer/long ejector. He had to go to the ER to have it taken out.

Some of us have been around a little longer than you.

I have to think if your friend would have pierced himself during the flip and catch, you would have said so, and you wouldn't be so angry. And I'm not sure why you, and others, don't have a thread going to outlaw oversized ejectors. Maybe it's just cause you all like using oversized ejectors?

And I don't doubt a lot of you have been around longer than me. But I have DVDs of the USPSA President Michael Voigt going back to around the time you started. And I have DVDs of him flipping and catching as recently as the 09 Nationals. I just really have a hard time believing he would be so careless with safety if the technique is as dire as you all make it out to be. Could you offer a guess as to why?

Say the word and I'll list names of other careless showboaters. It reads like a who's who of IPSC. I just can't believe these guys don't know what they are doing.

[CHA-LEE]

It seems that the root cause of these detonations are due to either ammo or gun related failures. If that’s the case then does it really matter what technique you use to unload the gun because the way you unload the gun isn’t the root cause of the detonation?

As I have pointed out many times already, its up to the shooter to ensure that their equipment functions correctly and safely. If they choose to use equipment that is prone to failure and get injured due to it, how is that blame transferred to something else that is unrelated, such as unloading the gun in a particular manner?

[badchad]

I'm not certain what is necessary about the "flip N catch" in the ULSC procedure.

Nobody ever said it was necessary. It's about freedom baby!

I do know that it places the gun's ejection port facing upwards (where both the shooter and SO/RO are looking right at it from a relatively close range)...

When I hold my gun upright, and open my slide, it appears to me that the slide and frame placement are such that brass will be forced up and to the right should a detonation occur. When I turn my gun 90 degrees to the left, (like most do in a flip and catch) it looks to me like the fragments will be deflected to the right and up. I may still be at some risk in this position but since the RO is usually at my right, haven't I just made him a lot safer? Chris, is it different when you look at your gun?

As for those who advocate turning the gun upside down, (like virtually nobody does) I think I'd rather take a hit to the face than have my balls blown off.

[badchad]

If they choose to use equipment that is prone to failure and get injured due to it, how is that blame transferred to something else that is unrelated, such as unloading the gun in a particular manner?

Well, er, a.... BECAUSE IT'S SHOWBOAT'N!

[JeffWard]

TGO

Jim

That's my new technique!

[mactiger]

I'm with Scott on this one. Any kaboom off the ejector is going to happen with the weak hand in the same place as if you were letting the round drop. Makes no difference if you end up catching it in the air or pick it up off the ground. Now if you are waving the gun all over the place that is a different issue.

Personally I usually put the dropped mag in a pocket, roll my strong (left) hand inward 45 degrees so the ejection port is facing down and slightly away from me and pull the slide back at a moderate speed. Roll the gun back up

for the RO and I to be sure it is clear, hammer down, holster. The live round is almost always right at my feet and the ejection port is not pointed at my beautiful puss or the RO as the round comes out. This would

be tougher for right handed shooters though. (Finally, something that is!)

I think catching the round has no more inherent risk than letting the round drop to the ground. You can set a round off my having the primer hit a rock. The only thing that I never do is to put my fingers anywhere

near the ejection port to catch the round. It something goes badly there are all sorts of metal pieces coming out of that port at significant speed. One of my good buddies out here got fragged in the hand in just

that manner.

JMHO

IMO, this is the best post in here. All of the detonations I've seen (about a dozen) or heard about (at least a dozen more) have come from slowly ejecting the live round, many with a hand covering the ejection port to catch it. A 1911 style pistol is designed to eject empty brass like crazy. Not so much with live rounds, especially long loaded live rounds. I'm sure it's happened that someone has set one off by trying to flip and catch, but I haven't ever heard of one, and it's not against the rules.

Rack it hard and let it fly out. Catch it if you want to, as long as you handle the gun safely. NEVER put your hand over the ejection port.

Troy

[Flexmoney]

I am going to go ahead and use Troy's post as a good place to call a time out on this thread. (Always good to hear from Troy!)

We've beat this topic around a number of times. We always get about the same opinions and divided points of view.

(it doesn't belong in the "stage" forum anyway)

I am going to close it for a day or two, just because the opinions are getting a bit heated. Somebody remind me to re-open it if there is something new to add.

TIME OUT.

- Admin