Rookie

Fair question JPeel, I will agree that my "comments" may have the appearance of a complaint to some readers. I will work to improve on my limited communication skills in the future. I did not attempt to suggest in any way that I was the only competitor who shot the stage with backers missing from one or more targets. I was and am suggesting that those who shot the stage with backers missing had a different shooting challenge presented to them than those who shot with backers in place (temperature, precipitation, wind, time of day intentionally omitted from the equation). I like to think of myself as a 3-Gun Competitor and to that end... I accepted the score I earned (with a smile on my face) and did not leave the stage until I had thanked each of the ROs for their effort. To DocMedic (The Stage 2 CRO)... thanks for your comment. I understand the RO,s position (been there, still doing that) regarding coaching. However, I don't think it would have been a "coaching" violation to notify impacted competitors that a backer had fallen off so that we would at least know that something about the stage had changed since the walk-thru. I also understand that once you set precedent, it should be kept consistent for all competitors. My intent (whether or not anyone will agree with me) with the original post was to note that the backer system failed (this year) and that some consideration should/might be given to making a more robust backer "system" to improve performance against the intended punishment in the future. For the record... I don't know how to do that.

Long Range Rifle target presentation was well done this year. However... target presentation during the match was fairer for some than others. Stage 2, for example all 4 rifle targets had bright yellow backers and were easy to locate during our walk-thru. We were not allowed to walk up to the rifle positions after the first shooter was started, so there was no opportunity for the shooters to identify a problem with the targets. Heavy metal shooters were moved to the back of the shooting order. When it was my turn (7th shooter on the squad), I ran up to the sticks and dropped my gun down on the targets on the right side and all I could see was dirt. Backers had apparently fallen off and this was not corrected. The targets by that time were well beaten and blended in beautifully with the background mud. The RO did not say a word as I searched for the targets from each of the 3 positions. I do not know when the backers fell off, but I know that at least some of the first shooters on our squad got a bright yellow backer on the targets and some (including me) did not. I know that the schedule for this match is always a challenge... but something should have been done, and needs to be done to fix this "opportunity" for future events.

Great... added camouflage. Just what RM3G needs!

So... if every match is the same (target size, shape, distance, color, presentation), everybody is happy? ...Not! Every Match Director seems to have their own touch and I can pretty much depend on it (for their matches) from year to year. I don't need to see target placement, maximum distance, minimum size and resetting management in their ruleset. I select matches to attend based upon the general challenges presented. If I can see a target, with or without magnification, there exists a probability that I can hit it (that's over-confidence speaking). In theory, I should be able to hit a 2MOA target with my match rifle and ammo... if a match director chooses to put a 4" plate at 200 yards and every competitor has to hit it or take a penalty... why not? RM3G is a rifle match. I need a scope to see a 10" diameter target set at 300 yards (in the shade). I have Red/Green and Blue/Yellow color deficiency so I cannot see the orange backers in the woods. But I thoroughly enjoy the challenge that JJ and Denise put on, so I go every year and have my butt kicked, in more than one way. A bonus target at 1400 yards is a rush when you hit it with the allocated 1 shot as are the 450 - 630 yard targets on the clock. SMM3G is a mock hoser match for all 3 weapons, with a bunch of no-shoots thrown in to make it interesting. Full size paper targets at 250 yards plus, and a few steel out to a maximum of 400 yards. It would not upset me to have the Shotgun round count boosted a bit with more options for reloading strategy, but this is another "not miss" match for me. FB3G is a long range rifle match (my opinion again), but it is a "bug hunt". If the sun is in the right place at the right time, I can find the targets. Running across rope bridges while engaging targets and knock down pistol targets from across the river is something I don't see at the other matches. If these matches were all the same... same size/type of target at the specified distances, it could negatively impact some (if not a lot) of the interesting challenges that some of our creative match directors and stage designers put on the ground for our entertainment. A "classifier" stage every once in a while is tolerable... but a match consisting of classifiers would fall well into the intolerable (for me) category. Just sayin'

Am I reading this thread right??? The discussion suggests (my perception) that a number of contributors are requesting to have target size specified in the match ruleset? How many of you would decide to shoot (or not shoot) a match based upon the target size specified in the rules?

Thank you Stealthy... I did not realize I had been taped running that stage. Obviously (from watching the video) I am not one of the "speed" pump shotgun artists in the sport, which probably only serves to increase the value of this data point.

Chirp-Chirp, I can confirm that a competitor using a pump shotgun under the "Provisional" Heavy Metal rules placed 12th out of 71 shooters on Stage 1 of last weekends match. The stage was a 14 round birdshot course of fire (following a 4 round rifle COF). 5 of the competitors finishing ahead of the pump shotgun were running in Open division. Shooter started with rifle at low ready and at buzzer, engage 4 clay birds (at approximately 2 yards) then abandon rifle and pick up loaded shotgun from staging barrel. I suggest that this is one data point... not an 18 round shotgun COF, but one data point!

Why can't we all just get along... What is it about a pump action on the shotgun that makes it "HEAVY" or gets it classified as "HeMan"? What is it about iron sights on a rifle that makes it "HEAVY" or gets it classified as "HeMan"? Don't mess with the .45!!! I see these weapon platform requirements as demanding some level of expertise in a different skill-set outside of the Tac-Scope and Open Divisions... but I don't see what makes them an essential element of defining the heavy metal element of 3-gun. The Soldier of Fortune matches apparently form a historical basis for the definitions, but I have not seen a notice for a SoF match in my 3-Gun experience. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy shooting in the "Heavy Metal" division because of the special challenges it presents but I am confused and intrigued about some of the positions taken regarding pump versus semi-auto and iron sight systems versus magnified optics... and let's not forget pistol caliber. I have difficulty finding some of the targets at RM3G with the naked eye... let alone find them over an iron sight, so I shoot in the "scoped" version. Does that make me a bad person? At the end of the day (and the discussion) I just hope that I am not the only one signing up for the "Heavy Metal" divisions in a future match. There is nothing "wrong" with the RM3G ruleset regarding Heavy Metal, just as there is nothing wrong with the IMA (SMM3G) ruleset from my perspective... (but I could be drawn into an argument debate over the USPSA ruleset), but I think we can agree that they are different.

I started out running an 1100, because it was what I had. It runs most brands of 3 dram, 1-1/8 loads and is capable of 3" groups at 80 yards with several varieties of 1 oz slugs. It has failed me in a match maybe 4 times in the last 15 years. ​I had to learn to push shells all the way into the magazine or they would drop back under the bolt. This was fixed when I opened the loading port. Someone installed my piston ring upside down after cleaning earlier this year, and I went single-shot for the duration of one stage (local match) Someone bent a spring while reinstalling the trigger group and I went single shot for the duration of one stage (2015 SMM3G). Can't remember another gun malfunction... probably thinking of a shooter malfunction I wipe it down and lube it with 0-W-15 Mobil 1 after every match and change the o-rings when I see any damage (I get approximately 500 rounds per ring). The gun will run and shoot better than I can. My back-up is an older 1100 and I have never needed to pull it out.

I will add my thanks to the others here, and admit that I did not try the test samples. If I attempted a dual or quad load while on the clock... anyone within 10 yards (thats radius) would be endangered by shot shells that escaped my grasp. I am a fan of your other 3-Gun support products, however. Your support of our monthly match is appreciated.

Different shotgun manufacturer, but similar symptoms. I run an 870 and experienced extraction problems very similar to those noted above. Specifically, I experienced the extraction difficulty with various birdshot and slug loads. The 1st 2 or 3 rounds would extract as expected and then extraction got more difficult with each shot until after as few as 6 rounds, I could not operate the action. After discovering that chamber polishing improved but did not eliminate the sticking, I noticed that different types of shotshell bases ran differently. I discovered that the use of brass colored bases had a significant impact on how long the gun would run before I could not open the action. I switched over to brass bases (Remington STS, Winchester AA) and I have not had a problem since. I know these bases have some ferrous content... but the attraction forces to my magnet are lower than most steel colored bases. Different platform, similar problem, possibly same prescription. If you ever find the "root cause" I would appreciate your posting of the corrective action.

I've noticed that he can handle a shotgun pretty well!

When and where do you (MD and/or stage designer?) plan to post the stages for the 2015 match? Thanks for posting round count information!

I too have an 870 with 28" barrel, that I picked up for Heavy Metal competition. It does not like steel base shells. You might conduct a test to determine whether your barrel suffers from the same malady as mine. My 870 will run AA, Rem STS & Nitro (including reloads in these hulls). Successfully confirmed with torture testing on the all-shotgun RM3G stage (42 rounds I believe) last year. It will choke on Estate, Federal and Fiocchi after 3 - 5 rounds I tried polishing out the chamber as well... and it improved the steel hull extraction performance, but if I had to shoot more than 5 rounds.... they would start to stick in the chamber. The easiest solution for me was to switch to "softer" base hulls. When you figure out the root cause (I believe that softer base hulls are just a band-aid), please let me know.

"Minimum" Round count update: Stage designs have been revised... and there still may be additional changes that could affect round count. These should be considered "estimate only". The significant changes affect Rifle and Buckshot. Rifle - 185 Pistol - 155 Birdshot - 110 (size 6 or smaller) Buckshot - 10 (00 for 12 gauge) Slug - 4

I think that there were 3 stages in the 2014 "Nationals" that required all 3 guns... My memory is not what it used to be, however, and it is subject to an occasional lapse. I will concede the point that the round count was higher (approximately 30%) than recent editions of the SMM3G...

Charbonneu482... would you accept an estimate for the 2015 match? Rifle - 150 Pistol - 150 Shotgun Birdshot - 110 Buckshot - 2 Slugs - 4 The "minimum round count" estimate provided above considers 2 hits on all paper and 1 on steel... your results may vary, but you should be safe if you plan your match ammo supply around this baseline.

Just have to add my $0.02! Counting scoring hits will certainly impact the scoring/reset time for every stage (except perhaps an all steel/frangible stage) relative to just recording time & penalties. It takes a tad more time to score the targets (is it close, or close enough?) and it takes more time to record the scores (paper or I-pad) Stats (or someone) has to enter additional info (unless you are using I-pads) Depending on the stage/match... the extra time required for "Hit Factor" scoring will vary... but it will take extra time. If it is considered in your match schedule, then it should not be a problem. If your match schedule normally runs on the ragged edge with time-plus scoring, then changing the scoring system to Hit Factor scoring without any other adjustments to stage or staffing, then your match might run longer than planned. How much? On a typical rifle paper stage at one of my local matches (24 - 32 rounds), I would expect to spend an additional 10 to 30 seconds per shooter for scoring. Results may vary.

Pro Am had 541 total, but it really is 2 matches that are held at the same location, on the same weekend. FNH 3 Gun had 345 competitors. Linda Chico Linda & Spartan 6 Thanks for the information, I'm going with the definition of... biggest = single match with the most competitors that show up. It makes sense that "the size of the match" is determined by the number of shooters run thru the stages... and this should include those that showed up for the match, but may not have finished for one reason or another (can you say DQ?). FNH 3 Gun is certainly up there... and SMM3G has had over 345 competitors for the last 3 years (2012 - 2014). Perhaps it does not matter which match is the biggest... but that's easier to define (and defend) than the question "which match is the best?".

I have a question regarding a comment that I think I heard during the pre-prize table ceremony. The statement that I think that I heard was that this match was the 2nd largest 3-Gun match in the country in terms of number of registered shooters. According to the shooter results sheets posted on-line there were approximately 254 competitors... Superstition Mountain Mystery 3-Gun match has claimed over 300 competitors for the last 2-3 years and I did not hear their match identified as number 1 (it may not be No. 1, but it is a reference point). What am I missing? Are some of the shooter scores missing from the on-line results? I would like to know the "large match" criteria used so that I can put it into perspective. Regardless, FB3G 2014 was/is a great match and they pushed a large number of shooters thru 10 stages in a tad over 2.5 days!

Per your request for input... I think that there is already a considerable difference between "limited" and "Tac Scoped"... The magnified versus non-magnified sights on the rifle! Many rule sets already stipulate that you can run both non-magnified optic and iron sights on the rifle in "limited", but they cannot be offset. Most rule sets allow offset iron sights in the "scoped" division. If you want to stick on a "...rounds in a magazine..." constraint, then do it the same for both divisions. If you want further delineation with shotgun, then specify only pump shotguns in "limited"... I don't think it will be helpful to limit shotgun magazine capacity... how do you confirm this at the stage during a match??? If you want more discrimination between the "tactical" divisions and Open, then slap on a "30 rounds max in a magazine" constraint for rifle. Pistol and shotgun differences between Open and other divisions are fairly significant now and don't need further change. My $0.02.

Have the 2014 match stages been posted? I have only found the 2013 stages on the fb3g website. Perhaps I am not looking in the right place.

The alternating squad approach will provide some insurance that there is a full squad geared up and ready to start when a stage is available. This alone won't keep your match on schedule... but if you have a slow squad, or a problem on one stage, the domino (delay) effect on subsequent stages is minimized. The logistics for getting from one stage to the next need to be considered in your match format (and probably already is considered). If the travel and shooter "gear up" time fits into your half-day format schedule, then you should be good to go. If you have a couple of complicated stages (high, combined shoot and reset time) compared to the rest of your match and your squad schedule is based upon a shooter-to-shooter time that is lower than these "complicated" stages, then the alternating squad schedule can help keep most of your stages on schedule despite delays on one or more stages.

I have found marks on some of my rounds in the same general location as illustrated in your pictures. In my case, I was able to wipe them off without too much trouble. They went away after I cleaned the oil/crud residue out of the sizing die (Dillon). The upper right photo appears to show some metal flow, however, and you probably won't be able to wipe that out!

For what it's worth... and it is only my perspective... Apparently you have already verified that you and your equipment (ammo and rifle) are zeroed at 200 yards! If you want to verify that the stadia lines on the scope are "cut" correctly, then all you really need to do is "measure" the holdover on the 200 yard target (or 100 yards, or something convenient... place a yardstick on the target, or mark it, or do as you propose... shoot at it and measure the difference between POA & POI. If you want to confirm that your ballistic chart is correct (and matches your ammo, scope offset and other accuracy/repeatability factors) then you will have to find a range that will let you reach out a tad further. Putting additional holes in a target at 200 yards will provide no new information beyond whether the stadia lines are cut as advertised.