mhs

Nice analogy, if you ignore that people who participate in this sport agree to follow the rules. If you don't like the game, don't play. If you really don't like it, and feel the need to play, suck it up and try to change the rules in a way accepted by the game that you chose to play. Mark ***Editted to put reply down here, not in quote box.***

What happens if you hit the neck of the plate and it doesn't fall? Rule?

You can't pick out one rule, and ignore the others. In this case there is an order that must also be followed. 5.7.7.1 cannot be applied until the course of fire has been terminated, and the range has been made safe. Only then will the RO make his inspection, as laid out in 5.7.7 The RO must then find evidence of the problem. 5.7.7.2 clearly states that if the problem does not exist at the time of the inspection, a reshoot is in order. This may, or may not, be the intention of whoever wrote these rules, but it is what we have. This seems correct to me.

You could also argue that since 4.2.2.1 allows for use of modified targets which did not originally have a non-scoring border (which classic and metric have), other types must be allowed. True, as long as the non-scoring border is installed as required in 4.2.2.1. Or it could mean some past manufacturing process of classic and metric targets did not include perfs. Maybe all it means is that if you cut off part of the (classic or metric) no-shoot, you are required to make a new non-scoring border in the affected area. This interpretation doesn't contradict either rule.

You could also argue that since 4.2.2.1 allows for use of modified targets which did not originally have a non-scoring border (which classic and metric have), other types must be allowed.

Doesn't 1.2.2.3 allow the weak hand stipulation at all levels? Does it apply only to level II or higher?

This is not a legal USPSA stage. They can hand out any penalty they wish. The full procedure is Upon start signal, turn, then draw and engage T1- T4 with two rounds each, perform a mandatory reload and re-engage T1-T4 with two rounds each WEAK hand. This procedure is used in many classifiers but it always says WEAK HAND ONLY. If the WSB does not stipulate weak hand ONLY can the shots be taken supported? 16 rounds makes it at least a Medium course (1.2.1.2). 1.1.5.4 Medium or Long courses of fire may stipulate the use of either strong or weak hand, provided that only one hand, either strong or weak, is specified for no more than the last six (6) shots required. The procedeure you just quoted requires the last 8 rounds to be fired WHO. That's why Wide45 correctly stated it isn't a legal stage. Check some of those Classifiers you're thinking of and see how many rounds are required WHO or SHO. It's probably not more than 6. Speedshoot, maybe?

Are you sure? I think it's more like a 0.02 oz decrease for 5000 feet higher.

Ah, but has it-- by the strict letter of the rule? 8.3.4 "Start Signal"-- The signal for the competitor to begin their attempt at the course of fire. If a competitor fails to react to a start signal, for any reason, the Range Officer will confirm that the competitor is ready to attempt the course of fire, and will resume the range commands from "Are You Ready?". I bolded the most pertinent words and phrases, as therein lies the ambiguity. Is a "twitch" indicative of me beginning the CoF? I twitch when I hear rounds touching off in the next bay; I twitch when I hear them zipping around the top of the berm; I twitch when a fly lands on my nose; I twitch when I've got an itch in a "sensitive area". More logically, the drawing of the pistol, movement of the feet out of the start position (or hands, if in a non-conventional start position), or even the firing of the first shot is indisputable evidence that I've begun the CoF. In fact, I would argue that it's the first shot only, as it's used in other portions of the Rule Book as a defining moment (i.e. reshoot or scored stage in the case of a malfunction). Also note the "react" and "for any reason". It doesn't say anything about not hearing the start signal, but in fact gives the shooter full leeway to not react at all. Maybe they just didn't feel like moving-- that counts as "any reason". I won't go into the full implications of that rule, as it's written, but... there's a lot of room for the shooter. Not sure where you see the ambiguity. 8.3.4 says: “Start Signal” – The signal for the competitor to begin their attempt at the course of fire. If a competitor fails to react to a start signal, for any reason, the Range Officer will confirm that the competitor is ready to attempt the course of fire, and will resume the range commands from “Are You Ready?”. I said "By 8.3.4 if you react the COF has started." With mild paraphrasing, the rules say if the competitor doesn't react, the COF hasn't started. I said if he does react, it has. Where's the ambiguity? First, another rule I found: 9.10.3 "A competitor who reacts to a start signal but, for any reason, does not fire a shot or continue the attempt at the course of fire and fails to have an official time recorded on the timing device operated by the Range Officers will be given a zero time and zero score for that course of fire." Which definitely seems to support your position-- "gotcha" though it may be. So now, to simply sum up the ambiguity. I suppose "react" means as little as twitch, as you suggest. But am I twitching/reacting to the start signal? Or one of the eleventy-billion other possible causes for a twitch-- including trying to jump the buzzer? Drawing, leaving the start position and taking the first shot are all obviously reactions to the start signal-- but I have to be a statue otherwise? Of course, this opens up a lot of doors. If I twitch even the slightest bit just before the start signal, and then go ahead with the draw and CoF, should I be stopped for a False Start-- since a twitch can indicate the starting of the CoF? Or is that just creeping before the start signal-- and depending on the millisecond timing, requires holding off on the Signal or a Procedural? How's about just not short beeping-- and if it happens by accident, and the shooter doesn't obviously begin the CoF, start over again from "Are You Ready?" If you have read and comprehended this thread, you know that I was asking about a reaction to a start signal, even if the RO only "sees you twitch slightly, in response to the beep?" Note that I specified "in response to the beep". As are many things in our sport, this is a judgement call. If the RO judges you to have reacted to the beep, the COF has started.

Ah, but has it-- by the strict letter of the rule? 8.3.4 "Start Signal"-- The signal for the competitor to begin their attempt at the course of fire. If a competitor fails to react to a start signal, for any reason, the Range Officer will confirm that the competitor is ready to attempt the course of fire, and will resume the range commands from "Are You Ready?". I bolded the most pertinent words and phrases, as therein lies the ambiguity. Is a "twitch" indicative of me beginning the CoF? I twitch when I hear rounds touching off in the next bay; I twitch when I hear them zipping around the top of the berm; I twitch when a fly lands on my nose; I twitch when I've got an itch in a "sensitive area". More logically, the drawing of the pistol, movement of the feet out of the start position (or hands, if in a non-conventional start position), or even the firing of the first shot is indisputable evidence that I've begun the CoF. In fact, I would argue that it's the first shot only, as it's used in other portions of the Rule Book as a defining moment (i.e. reshoot or scored stage in the case of a malfunction). Also note the "react" and "for any reason". It doesn't say anything about not hearing the start signal, but in fact gives the shooter full leeway to not react at all. Maybe they just didn't feel like moving-- that counts as "any reason". I won't go into the full implications of that rule, as it's written, but... there's a lot of room for the shooter. Not sure where you see the ambiguity. 8.3.4 says: “Start Signal” – The signal for the competitor to begin their attempt at the course of fire. If a competitor fails to react to a start signal, for any reason, the Range Officer will confirm that the competitor is ready to attempt the course of fire, and will resume the range commands from “Are You Ready?”. I said "By 8.3.4 if you react the COF has started." With mild paraphrasing, the rules say if the competitor doesn't react, the COF hasn't started. I said if he does react, it has. Where's the ambiguity?

What happens if the RO sees you twitch slightly, in response to the beep? Are you certain that you can hear a "short beep" and not move at all? By 8.3.4 if you react the COF has started. Keep in mind that for an RM twitch might not equal react...... When I work as an RM, I expect the stage staff to make every attempt to follow the rules and assist all competitors equitably, including starting competitors randomly, within 1-4 seconds.... Stuff happens. My finger's slipped off the button of the yellow timer too soon, and I've stopped the competitor and given him a change to reset himself. I've had timers die after stand-by and not beep -- same resolution.... Is this an endorsement of Sin-ster's technique? What do you recommend a competitor to do if "short beeped"?

What happens if the RO sees you twitch slightly, in response to the beep? Are you certain that you can hear a "short beep" and not move at all? By 8.3.4 if you react the COF has started.

You can have it both ways: With the swinger you are shooting from a postion that you could make legal scoring hits. Under the wall there is no way to make a legal scoring hit. If you can't legally score from where you are shooting, I vote for FTSA.

Read the rule again, and the entire thread. This was covered. I can't find where it was covered in the context I presented. In my example the shooter makes multiple holes in the target, but still gets a FTSA.

I haven't been reading the forum for a while, and haven't read this thread really carefully. With that disclaimer, has anyone considered 9.9.3? "Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement." According to 9.9.3, you can shoot all the holes you want in a target (through hard cover for example) before it is activated, but if you fail to activate the target you still get a failure to shoot at penalty. In this case, shooting at, or even hitting the target isn't enough to avoid a FTSA penalty. I think that a FTSA penalty should be given if the shooter has not attempted a shot which could result in a legal scoring hit on a target.

Agree, but 10 feet.

Classifiers don't necessarily follow current rules for other types of stages. El Pres was around long before "Speed Shoot" as we now know it was defined. If the rulebook doesn't explicitly say that you can't engage what target you want to when you want to, you can.

How do you figure NS when it didn't break the perf? Doesn't have to break it. Just has to touch it to get the penalty in this case. edited for clarity Correct, like I said...if I read it correctly. We still don't know if the target was hit as well....so from what I read. Skimmed the no shoot and missed the target. -20 If.... I read it correctly Where did you guys read that it touched the NS perf? Even if it did touch the perf, why wouldn't it score on the target behind it?

How do you figure NS when it didn't break the perf?

If the shooter doesn't feel that it is safe to have his holstered gun, on safe, pointing at his hand, he should also feel that it is unsafe to have it pointing at his, or the RO's leg, or pretty much anywhere but the backstop. I would not let him start the COF without complying with the start position in the WSB. If he insisted it was unsafe, I would suggest that he needs to become more familar with his gun before participating in a match, or that if it really is unsafe in the described start position, to get it repaired.

Considering 10.5.5.1, I don't see that the rules support an exception.

The exemption is only while you are facing downrange: 10.5.6 While facing downrange, allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point uprange beyond a radius of 3 feet from a competitor’s feet while drawing or re-holstering.

Are you sure about that?

Then I guess all hits (as depicted in the attached) on the edge that don't make a complete "hole" would be considered a miss since it did not "completely pass through"? Correct? I'm so confused. I think "completely" in this context means penetrating both surfaces of the target, not that the complete bullet must penetrate the target.

Open the door, take a step or two uprange, go prone or kneeling? Hard to say for sure without being on the stage. And that is a different location from where you engaged the ones uprange of the door. Open the door, take a step or two uprange, go prone or kneeling, and then engage all the targets from that position.