mhs

See 5.2.4 and 3.2.5

Considering the reshoot Gods are often not kind, yes. Take your chances. Or get a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct. ? That's pretty harsh. Why would the RO even start the shooter if he's settled into an incorrect start position? Well, I've had this happen to me - in fact on a squad I think you were shooting on last year. I had a competitor, after Standby, anticipate the start signal, and fully draw before I hit the button. His movement was fast enough that I couldn't disconnect my finger from the timer button and hit it - just about the time he was presenting at the first target. After a few rounds, I stopped him, and ordered a reshoot. Why? The competitor wasn't in the proper start position when the start signal occurred. Some say this was creeping, but I determined it was not creeping because they were not merely moving to get a more advantageous position - but had left the start position at the time of the start signal. I think that this is covered by 8.3.4.1

I think the knee braces are for bad knees. Wrist wraps to stabilize normal, healthy wrists don't seem to be in the same category.

Bad example. Pulling the first person shooting factory 9mm for a calibration shot already is a no-no unless that individual gun and ammo combination have been tested and approved by the RM.

6.2.5.1 is not limited to after the start signal.

Given that Amidon uses the word “unfortunately,” could it be that even he thinks throwing a Single Stack/Production shooter into Open for having a loose round or Barney mag in one's front pocket is tad unreasonable, though perhaps necessary given the wording of the rules? I feel reasonably safe saying that, were I in his position, I would feel that it was unfortunate that a well-meaning competitor could be bumped to open for forgetting to put their barney mag away in their back pocket. I think the unfortunate part is that it is a technical violation that offers no advantage. Ultimately, rules are rules, and no one is forced to play.

They don't contradict each other. The first part of 5.2.4 tells you that you still need to carry your mags properly after the start signal (you can't pick them all up off the table and carry them in your hand). The second part tells you that a pocket located within division requirements counts as a mag pouch. 6.2.5.1 tells you what happens if you don't comply with division requirements during the COF.

I'm pretty sure we all agree that the restriction is only during the COF.

You're right, if the pockets are in front of the hipbone. WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!! The rule states after the start signal!!!! 5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the USPSA Handgun Rules, June 2010 Edition • 19 20 • USPSA Handgun Rules, June 2010 Edition location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 Look at page 68, March/April 2011 Front Sight.

You're right, if the pockets are in front of the hipbone.

It doesn't say you can't have it in your front pocket, it does say that spare ammunition must be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt: "During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose." There are no exceptions listed afterward for spare ammo, only for mags and speedloading devices. This is just like where you can carry your gun: The rules don't say that you can't put it in your front pocket, rather they say where it is allowed.

Yes, I would. 5.2.4 states: "During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose." So spare ammo is fine, as long as it is carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt. 5.2.4 also states: "Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s)"... No mention of spare ammo in pockets as an exception. What am I missing?

Do I have this right? You were taught in your class that a production/ss shooter may carry a loaded mag in his pocket, in front of his hipbone, during a COF, as long as he doesn't use it.

I don't see where it includes loose ammo: "may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s)" 5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). Exactly. "spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose." "may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s)" I don't see a provision for loose ammo in pockets.

I don't see where it includes loose ammo: "may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s)" Having met members of the board -- and having read both the rulebooks they've written and many rules proposals during the working stages -- I believe I have the answer for that: Too much experience -- I don't think they ever considered the "losing proposition" of carrying and loading loose rounds..... And clearly you're good prior to the start signal, right? Well... I think having ammo, in or out of mags/speedloaders/clips, in a division-non-compliant position is an offense even before the start signal. Just like having a barney mag in front of a production shooter's hipbone at MR. For the record, I would be very unlikely to notice a single cartridge in a pocket.

I don't see where it includes loose ammo: "may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s)"

If the location does not comply it is a violation even if you don't use it.

1)I've mentioned this in other posts; I don't think it's unreasonable for me to assume the rulebook uses standard definitions of words, as found in standard dictionaries. 2)If you search the rules for "shall" you'll find over a dozen instances in which "shall" is clearly used meaning "must". 3)I hope that definition of "shall" is consistent throughout the book.

I think the back pocket is legal with a mag or speed-loading device. I'm just not sure about loose ammo.

No. It provides some basic guidance in line with best practices ("shall be carried") while leaving plenty of leeway for competitors who want to practice the same way they carry, or for new competitors who may not have an adequate number of magpouches.... If you check Meriam-Webster online the seemingly applicable definition of shall is: "used in laws, regulations, or directives to express what is mandatory" I was thinking about this rule because I normally put the 11th round from my first mag in my pocket for unloaded starts, and it just dawned on me that it is technically illegal.

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). Does this mean that a competitor is not allowed to carry loose ammo in their pocket during the COF, even if the pocket location is division-compliant?

1 -- might depend on the condition of the gun. Slide locked back, using a squib rod, cleaning rod, or pulling a bore snake through -- nope. Gun in the condition it's normally in when we shoot a stage? Maybe -- it would depend on the circumstances. In 10 years of hanging out at ranges, which at the better matches offer close to 1 safety table per pit/range, I've never had to dq a shooter for that.... 2 -- Sweeping yourself is never safe. 10.5.5.1 simply acknowledges that if you are going to draw from a holster and reholster, some sweeping of yourself is inevitable. That doesn't make the practice "safe." Then again, just getting out of bed in the morning can be risky.... Two good answers.

10.5.1 and 2.4.1 2.4.1 puts some restrictions on what you may do in a safe area (enumerated in .1-.4), and imposes some requirements -- gotta stay within the confines AND gotta keep the firearm pointed in a safe direction. Sweeping yourself is never safe, so you've busted 2.4.1, and that means that 10.5.1 comes into play: Being that I'm thorough, I'd also cite Section 10.5 in general: And again, I'd need to be certain the violation had occurred, not just think it might have.... I have never seen anyone dq'd for this at a safe table, but I've issued a few muzzle warnings, to keep one from happening. Two questions: 1)Would you DQ someone in a safe area for sweeping their hand as they tried to fix their gun, even if was pointed at the backstop? It seems obvious to me that the sweeping rule specifies COF for a reason. 2)You say "Sweeping yourself is never safe". What about 10.5.5.1?

Unless it was pointed at your feet or legs..... Which goes back to my question of "can you be DQ'd for sweeping yourself in the safe area"? No because there is no supervision there and a DQ takes supervision. But if the RM is over watching you change guns because of a broken gun and he sees you sweep yourself a DQ should be the result because there is a no sweeping rule. Safe area is not an excetption. +1 Show me the rule.

Unless it was pointed at your feet or legs..... Which goes back to my question of "can you be DQ'd for sweeping yourself in the safe area"? No because there is no supervision there and a DQ takes supervision. But if the RM is over watching you change guns because of a broken gun and he sees you sweep yourself a DQ should be the result because there is a no sweeping rule. Safe area is not an excetption. If a member of the match staff happens to see the shooter though -- or if another competitor or bystander brings it to the RM's attention, and the shooter tells the truth when asked -- then a match dq might be applied.... The unwritten policy at our club matches is that the ROs are never truly off duty. When possible we try to prevent DQs, but if a safety breach has occurred at the safe table, and one of us sees it, we make the call, which includes notification of the RM, so the shooter may be heard or counseled, as appropriate.... I've headed off a couple of DQs at the safe table, and unfortunately have also seen a couple called in the last decade..... As far as I can tell sweeping is legal as long as it is not in the COF. What rule would you guys apply to DQ someone sweeping themself in the safe area?