Hoops

Chamber flags are required for carbines secured in carts.........and also for carbines stored in gun cases. The option to use cases/bags or carts is up to the shooter.

Official SCSA will remain my choice. It was disappointing that after 79 people took the time to respond to BOD’s regarding Peak Times and other suggestions, they did not even respond. It is my opinion, to energize and promote growth for SCSA, there needs to be a couple of new stages and a separate RO certification….just to mention a couple items. There’s more I’m sure. SCSA is more than the WSSC and 3 or 4 pages buried in the monthly magazine. Even though I think it’s a mistake, I do not think the BOD’s will change its focus. So I’m not going to continue commenting about it and instead will just continue to shoot matches.

Probably what I read that caught my eye were the words "vertical down". Most of the 3 wheeled carts.....if not all and mine included....used in SCSA hold the carbines at an angle with muzzle down. Probably around 40 degree angle. In the last few years I think I have seen only one cart that was designed for Vertical carry and it was stowed vertical up. Frankly I was not a fan of that method. We see two methods with the 4 wheeled carts. Uncased and tilted forward with muzzle angled down. Some just keep their carbines cased and laying in the cart. We recommend keeping the cases muzzle forward in the carts so there is not a hiccup if uncased backwards in the shooter box.

For some unknown reason to me now, I thought I read that carbines now had to be stowed in carts muzzle UP which is not what most carts do.....mine included. Perhaps I had merged my confusion with current rule about side berms and muzzle up vs down. No way was I suggesting muzzle pointing at anyone....EVER. In fact, we insist that the 4 wheeled carts have muzzle pointing down into the front of the cart....forward (downrange when in the box).....not horizontal. Sorry for confusion. And............my neck is just fine

I rarely get a stiff neck about stuff, But If that is the position, this will create lot of negative reaction from people, especially if they were to be DQ’d over a cart. Carts are not cheap and 100’s of thousands of dollars have been invested by shooters and by companies that sell them. And, they are perfectly safe. I’m betting there will be plenty of carts at the WSSC in a few weeks and that no one will be DQ’d as a result. I personally had an email in 2021 from USPSA/SCSA that agreed carts were not prohibited as long a secured and flagged. I doubt anything has happened across the country safety wise that would have specifically prompted a rule to prohibit them. Zack Jones….if you are reading this I would suggest a phone call to USPSA and a subsequent post here before the WSSC match. Just a thought.

Thanks Zach. Now I recall an Enos discussion about 18 months ago on this subject. As a member of the new Distinguished Senior group coupled with a few recent physical issues, I can attest to declining performance times. I am reaching the point where it is unlikely that I will ever beat any of my current "best" times. I have been an advocate for all SCSA shooters to have fluid and current classifications based on a formula instead of lifetime "best stage" scores and resulting classification. In the past, I have used golf handicap system as a correlation (but golfers are also notorious at betting based on handicaps and getting or giving strokes). The Enos feedback if I recall was split those that agreed and those that opposed changing the lifetime classification. If I were traveling and shooting higher level matches I would prefer to be in a class that best represents my skill level. But since I am only shooting Level 1 matches I wonder now it really matters. Shooters work hard to advance into higher classifications so I understand the resistance to down grade a class or two. If the classification system was fluid and changed based on formulas for everyone it would be easier to accept......I think. In any event, thanks for guiding me to the classificaiton section that addressed my original question.

In the USPSA March magazine was an explaination of current SCSA classification mechanics of Peak Times over Actual Times to develop the classification percentage. The math is straightfoward and consistent with past SCSA rules. The percentages for each class, i.e. A, M, GM, etc. have not changed. What SCSA has added, according to the article, is a shooter can now request a lower classification on a one time basis (if I understand correctly). Is this explained in the 2023 SCSA rules? The article seemed to be focused on "old" times posted per division and being dropped after time. I have read the SCSA rules several times and can't find any section or clarification about dropping old times and I suppose, dropping a classification, if older than some defined period. If I understand the classification system, once a class is made, it does not change. Can someone point me to the SCSA rules section about dropping old times?

Kidd Single Stage trigger.

Rimfire Rifle. I seem to recall a past clarification (by SCSA) that stowing/securing carbines in 3-gun style carts (and/or modified strollers) or 4 wheeled carts, was to be considered "cased".

FWIW.............. When I was in business, having between 400 and 600 employee's over nearly 50 years, It was not uncommon for 75-80% of the employee's would never volunteer comments in an open forum. The remaining 20 to 25% would usually be split between those in opposition or in support or those that would volunteer additional comments to any new operational procedure changes we would be proposing. So I am not surprised that the number of responses to the BOD's was a small number. However, if there were 79 (what was the actual number?) individuals (including me) that took the time to respond and offer comments, the board should break down ALL of the comments (not limited to just Peak Times) into categories and SHARE the input data with the membership.

When I received a follow up email from USPSA soliciting additional comments, the link did not work. I had previously submitted comments and thought perhaps that was the reason. Did anyone encounter the same problem with the email link?

For what it’s worth…. 1. SCSA should also re-evaluate the percentages required to make classification. Focus only on GM with 110% max puts unequal downward pressure on B thru M classes. 2. New stages would bring out more shooters. Many ranges can’t shoot the long stages and eventually 6 stages only tends to get stagnant. 3. There is a flaw in making class by keeping forever the “best of” stage time. If I did that in golf my 18 hcp would be par or less. 83% of WSSC shooters did not shoot their class (I think)

SCSA/HQ issues the top 20 data from their database. The information is there. Last year I requested the information from HQ that you asked about. The reply was not really an answer. I did not pursue it at the time. There is no reason that this information is not made public to the membership. Zach?

Okay you men. You've made your points. The beauty of SCSA is you can shoot anything you shoot in USPSA, including major factor as long as the round is deemed safe. So go for it. For us non-kids and I suppose fall in the category of sissy..........I would like to get back to discussing any points about SCSA that will be coming up with the BOD...specifically peak times and perhaps classifications.

Would de-coker guns be at a disadvantage if combined?

Since I started this topic, I suppose I can act as moderator too (or not?). In any event, my intent of starting this topic was to have a way for a group of SCSA shooters to communicate with Zack Jones who was recently given a seat at the BOD table as the newly appointed Steel Challenge Coordinator. Relative to Outer Limits, I believe we have enough comments from all points of view regarding (1) removing movement, (2) reviewing the current 4 sec penalty per string and, (3) dropping it completely from the current stages. If possible, could we move on from this one stage? Related to Outer Limits and Speed Option were suggestions that two additional (new) stages be added so that ranges with restricted bay sizes could shoot more than six stages. Additional comments were made that SCSA would benefit by adding new stages, independant from the OL and SO comments. Peak Times, specifically rimfire, were discussed. From the BOD minutes, we know that USPSA/HQ intends to review Peak Times following the 2022 WSSC which is now completed. Based on some of the fantastic low scores being shot some believe Peak Times would be reduced by 10%. Other comments (me) offered basic statistical information that suggests Peak Times should not be reduced. Since this will soon be a BOD item, I would hope to see more comments on this. Classifications. Not as much discussion as I thought there would be. I have a few thoughts that I will post after this post. A final observation. Many more people read the posts than the few who comment. I would encourage more readers to comment on thoughts they may have about SCSA that they would like for Zack to read. Thanks, Hoops

Peak Time comment: I have previously advocated for not changing Peak Times in the popular RFPO, RFRO and PCCO divisions. At the recent 2022 WSS match, the following are the percentages of those that shot below the Peak Times: RFPO - 7.7% below Peak Time / 92.3% were above. RFRO - 8% below Peak Time / 92% were above. PCCO - 8.2% below Peak Time / 91.8% were above. RFPO - 7.7% below Peak Time / 92.3% above. RFRO - 8% below Peak Time / 92% above. PCCO - 8.2% below Peak Time / 91.8% above. These figures are consistent with 2020 and 2021 WSS matches.

Were there any discussions at WSS about adding stages?

Jodi, I am not clear on the logic for your last paragraph. It appears to imply (to me) the "be careful of what you ask for" or you will get additional requirements that are not currently in place. Perhaps I am just not reading this correctly. Why change the current T2 requirements just because more people may become SCSA only certified RO's? Perhaps a SCSA only program would generate more RO's that all matches would benefit from in the long run.

USPSA.org is 501(c)(3) Non-profit. Charity Navigator provides information and ratings for non-profits/charities. Below is a link. If you go to the financial data, which is for 2017, 2018 and 2019. There is a bar chart for revenue and expenses. Revenue increased each year, but in 2019, expenses increased as a percentage of revenue....but still in the black. I can't find where USPSA publishes annual Revenue and Expense detail. Perhaps they are in the BOD minutes section. I may take a look there when I get some time. https://www.charitynavigator.org/ein/911325053

SCSA RO Certification Program. I guess I just don't see what the rub is. Why would any member be opposed to a SCSA only RO program? It would have no effect to USPSA (sport). This is an HQ issue and deserves to be addressed by the full BOD. SCSA members pay dues and match fees and should not have defend why they (we) want a seperate program. The BOD should take this up....and vote yes or vote no and record it in the minutes.

Anything of interest come out in the Member's meeting?

Agree. SCSA should have a program for RO cert separate from USPSA. Why the resistance?

Zack, I know from your post and BOD minutes that Peak Times will be reviewed after the WWSC match. It is wonderful to see the super fast times.....but generally by no more than around 12% in the class. In fact, this percentage holds up in the GM class. Hopefully there will be consideration of the 88% that can't beat Peak Times. If there is a concern with too many people getting in the GM (by ratio), I would suggest that it's not the Total Peak time but rather a funtion of how many times a person shoots each stage in hopes of getting lucky with hot run. Stage by Stage and not by Match. FWIW.....of the 88%, many are Seniors and Super Seniors who provide a lot of finacial support to SCSA matches. As for 2 added stages that would physically fit in most range bays, at least a classification could be earned accross 8 stages without OL or SO which is better than the current 4 to 6 stages for many ranges that can't shoot those stages. Have a great time there................thanks for listening and your support of SCSA.

Good points. * Fully support adding stages. IMO, if nothing else gets changed, adding more stages using the same combination of plate sizes would be tops on my list. * Outer Limits - numerous comments have been made regarding removing movement and/or alternatively, reducing the 4 second per string penalty. Perhaps seeking out Zack Jones before the meeting as he has been following these topics and is now the SCSA official Coordinator.