nuidad

And yet, how many times have you seen competitors starting in angled, running start stance, hands in the "quick draw" position when the WSB said, "Starting outside shooting area, toes on Xs?" I'm having a hard time thinking of a WSB that I've seen that would allow that start poosition.

Thanks, JAFO. You present a very logical solution to the dilemma. I wish I could find a definitive ruling on this and other Start Position questions as there seems to be a lot of "alternate" interpretations out there. I have run into several here in this thread as well as on the range. A sentence in 8.2.2 that says, "If a WSB restates part of the default position, use the default," would be helpful. The question that arises is, why wouldn't the CM-99-07 WSB then just say "...Standing in Box A?" That would make it very simple...DEFAULT POSITION, period. Why would they add a level of complexity to interpreting the WSB by adding anything? Especially in a Classifier where the intent is to have everyone start and shoot the stage the same. I can understand some redundancy and ambiguity at the club level in preparing the WSB but with all the scrutiny and all the effort having been put into making sure the classifiers were clear and concise, I wonder if they are actually describing the start position that was intended i.e., Standing in Box A (anyway you want) but with both arms...blah, blah. Have you found that most ROs ascribe to your use of the default in this situation?

Hopefully somebody still has enough interest in this thread to answer one more question. Classifier CM 99-07, Both Sides Now #1 (and several others), have Start Positions as below: START POSITION: Standing in Box A, both arms hanging relaxed at sides. Handgun is loaded and holstered as per ready condition in rule 8.1.1 and 8.1.2. Arms hanging relaxed at sides is one of the criteria for the "default start". Does that mean the default start is still applied or can the competitor now turn and face in any direction since it is "...otherwise specified" per 8.2.2. Thanks again for your help. Hopefully I won't be the tinhorn RO that harshes your make-ready Zen-state with uninformed BS.

Actually, I've always interpreted it like you said. But then I started thinking, what if it said, "sitting behind table?" The default wouldn't be applied there...couldn't be applied for obvious reasons. So I probably started overthinking the whole thing.

Bret. Thanks...the question was long and convoluted but if I'm reading the rest of your post correctly I think you and I agree (you said "No."). If it just says standing, the default is un-coupled...anything goes. If it just says starting, the default is applied. Am I reading you right?

One last related question that's been bugging me about starting position for all courses of fire...not necessarily just classifiers. Does the start position instruction "standing in shooting area" un-couple the default starting position requirement? Would 8.2.2 only apply if the starting position instruction was "starting in shooting area" or starting outside of shooting area" etc.? Where nothing else was specified except location.

Thinking about the whole "gaming" issue, I can't think of anything that could be done on this classifier that would be considered gaming. Gaming is walking nonchalantly back to the bear trap to activate the disappearing drop turner after the last shot is fired to avoid penalties. We're talking about a foot on the fault line, or bending over a little at the start signal...mostly just being comfortable at the start because that's the way you start most of the time when not specified otherwise in the WSB. The Classifier Guidance Document states: Every possible effort has been made to ensure that all the stages in this book are “game proof.” The courses have been repeatedly reviewed by many people with hundreds of years of combined practical shooting and course design experience. These include Range Officers, Chief Range Officers, Range Masters, Range Master Instructors, and the Director of the National Range Officers Institute.

Does the specified starting position in 99-12 require the competitor to be standing erect? START POSITION: Standing in Box A, index finger and thumb of each hand touching, with hands placed flat on barricade at eye level. Handgun is loaded and holstered as per ready condition in rule 8.1.1 and 8.1.2.

Would the other requirements of the "basic start position" in 8.2.2 apply here as well (mindful that the hands will be on the barricade)? Could the shooter be looking to the right or left of the barricade? I think that's what I always do when starting with hands on a barricade, unless the starting position specifies facing downrange. 8.2.2...Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides.

Nik, Do you mean eye level when the competitor is standing erect?

My club in Hawaii has asked me to seek clarification on the starting position for Classifier CM 99-12, "Take Your Choice". In particular: 1) How is eye level determined? Is it the shooters prerogative to decide where his/her eye level is? Or is it his/her "standing" eye level? 2) Is the shooter allowed to start with one, or both feet, on the fault lines? Thanks in advance. START POSITION: Standing in Box A, index finger and thumb of each hand touching, with hands placed flat on barricade at eye level. Handgun is loaded and holstered as per ready condition in rule 8.1.1 and 8.1.2.

I agree with sstephns... 1. One procedural for stacking under the reworded 9.4.5.3 (as Nik points out, this is a one string stage but the example given by DNROI seems relevant to this situation); 2. No reload penalty per 10.2.4 due the very specific language in the WSB requiring that all six targets be engaged before reload...which, as JAFO points out, the shooter did; 3. No procedural incurred under 10.2.2, failure to engage the targets as specified in WSB, due to 10.2.2.1 which is very specific about not being applicable to number of shots fired. On a separate note, some credit should be given to the shooter who screwed up the second shot but kept his/her head and pulled off a decent recovery with only a single penalty (by my assessment).

Interesting conundrum in Hawaii. Per state law, PCCs with unique magazines (not compatible for use in a pistol) can be loaded to any capacity. If the magazine can be loaded into a pistol, it is limited to 10 rds. Could get interesting here.

We had a similar situation at a local match but the legality of the stage was not an issue...loaded table start, Virginia count, six metric targets, one per target sitting, reload, one per target standing. Two shooters stood for the first 6, reloaded and sat for the final 6. One shooter stood for all 12. How should this have been scored. One question being asked was, did the shooters gain significant advantage by standing rather than sitting or vice versa (10.2.1)?

How about obstacles (other constructs?) as discussed in 2.2.2? Could a single barrel, which was clearly intended to be shot over, be considered an obstacle and therefore not subject to 2.2.3.3?

I think I get it. If it's less than 6 feet, one can shoot over it unless otherwise specified in the WSB. Sounds simple enough. Thanks

Does this rule include barrel walls. What about a single barrel at the end of a wall of stacked barrels. I ask because last month when I was considering shooting over a stack of barrels, I asked about the legality of doing that. The MD said no and inserted the "infinity" clause into the WSB and removed the single barrel at the other end of the wall. BTW...a stack of 2 barrels is going to be very close to the 69" limit for this rule.

Least Favorite: 9.6.2 The Range Official responsible for a course of fire may stipulate that the scoring process will begin while a competitor is actually completing a course of fire... I find this practice to be confusing, disruptive to the Assistant RO's primary duties, and unsafe...not worth the time saved.

I got nothing.

Couldn't a bogus time be grounds for an appeal under (9.10.2)? If you enter a time of zero, mathematically the result would be indeterminate, so, the RO could make a rational determination that the stage score would be 0. Or: Don't enter a time and rely on 9.7.6 & 9.7.6.1 to provide a rational scoring outcome of zero.

Thanks. I also found a reference in D4...Special Conditions (at the very end of D4), stating that "Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal."

Is this correct? Could I not shoot a single stack 1911 style gun in production division?

Got it! I got clarification from Kevin. There were more than the two shooting positions. Thank you all.

By the way...this controversy comes from an article posted in the NROI tab on the USPSA website https://www.uspsa.org/NROI-stage-design.php. I'm not sure when the article was written...may have been before the February 2014 Rules update. In which case, the article may no longer be valid since the issue was addressed in the 2014 update https://www.uspsa.org/document_library/rules/2014/2014 Rules Changes.pdf. If the article information is still valid (written after the update), I will probably need to "update" my thinking on the Rounds Per View rule. I was hoping someone would mention that they were familiar with the update of this issue and be able to set me straight quickly. I tried posting this topic in this manner, but no one responded...it's pretty boring when you look at it from this perspective. I have a call out to Kevin Imel (the author) for clarification but he hasn't gotten back to me yet.

Teros135: I agree this stage is not the greatest design and I would not design a stage like this, even if it is legal. It's just hypothetical, but understanding why it's legal or not legal could come into play during a match where the "Rounds Per View" issue raises it's ugly head.