nuidad

Can anyone tell me the difference between match score and match recognition? Since the inclusion of the PCC Division, we are seeing a lot more competitors shooting two Divisions. Since Level I matches allow competitors to enter multiple Divisions for match recognition, does it matter which Division they shoot first...do they have to declare which Division they are shooting for match score and shoot that Division first? 6.2.4 Subject to the prior approval of the Match Director, a competitor may enter a match in more than one Division. However, the competitor may compete for match score in only one Division, and that must be the first attempt in all cases. Any subsequent attempts in another Division will not count for match recognition. 6.2.4.1 Level I matches may allow competitors to enter multiple Divisions for match recognition. Are many of you seeing this same increase in multiple Division participation? We had 5 of our 11 competitors shoot multiple Divisions (PCC) last weekend...and the number is growing.

How does it do in the bright sun? Is it temperamental in hot weather and rain? The idea sounds good and I'm familiar with the Amazon Fire operating system. I went with the Nook because it is so easy to see in the bright sunlight.

HELP! I purchased a Nook BNRV300 Simple Touch Reader to get familiar with the match set-up process. The procedure to install PractiScore is WAY beyond me. Can anyone help with contacts, step-by-step instructions, or alternatives for setting up my Nook---that a 66 yr. old Luddite can understand?

I agree...but I think it will be difficult to keep them out of any sport (or pretty much anything) as the technology progresses. It would probably be a good idea to start thinking, now, about how they could be used safely and un-obtrusively. (I think the awesomeness of the video from their perspective will be very appealing to a lot of people.)

One word...Drones.

Not trying to hijack this thread but to expand on the "competitors on the COF" issue, scoring and resetting behind an active shooter seems to be OK. I have witnessed situations on several occasions (one where I was shooting) where people were subjected to increased risk...especially when the COF did not lend itself to "active" scoring but the RO allowed it anyway (per 9.6.2). The real issue isn't the confusion, the elimination of the scorer from his true function, the squabbles, and the re-shoots...it's the disregard of safety for expediency.

Just so I'm clear: MR location is the Start location, Barrel or table starts will, logically, have a different MR and Start location, Written permission in the WSB for additional steps to take a sight picture is not permitted, (??) The RO could grant some movement away from the Start location under 8.3.1.1 but not for a sight picture. 8.3.1.1 Once the "Make Ready" command has been given, the competitor must not move away from the start location prior to issuance of the "Start Signal" without the prior approval, and under the direct supervision, of the Range Officer.

My confusion could have been resolved with something simple in the rules like"...the RO will designate the Make Ready location..." But since it doesn't say that, I see the need for a practical application of discretion on the ROs part in determining the MR location. I get it. As I said, if this is the general practice...I'm good. General area of the Start location. Couple of steps to get a sight picture…all good. Thanks all

I agree...I always just MR where I'm told...no big deal. The question I'm asking is not how to deal with this situation as a shooter but, is the RO acting within the rules when he requires you to move to where he wants...it's just about the rules. I've never argued a call as un-important as this on the range, but I think it's appropriate to discuss it here on BE in the spirit of the rules.

Do you think you were told to "step out" for the purposes of safety...because if it's not safe to make ready behind that wall, it probably isn't safe to draw and fire your pistol from that location. And, as far as expediency, the RO just added a couple of seconds to the MR time. What if you had decided on your own that you wanted to MR at that location and the RO said, "No. You have to MR at the Start location." That's happened to me in the past and it did get into my head (for a few seconds). Not a big deal but, where's the rule that takes the discretion away from the competitor and gives it to the RO when there is no safety or expediency issues in play.

Since the time factor has been mentioned three times, I began thinking about it. How much time would actually be wasted by the few shooters who chose to Make Ready away from the Start location? Even if every shooter chose to Make Ready 10 seconds away from the Start location it might increase the total match time by around 15 minutes (10 sec. X 15 shooters/squad X 6 stages = 15 min). Now, realistically, only a few shooters will want to do the "remote" make ready, so it would probably be less than about 5 minutes of extra time. I think good stage management between shooters...resetting, scoring etc., is where the real time is saved. That, and good stage design, avoidance of re-shoots, and avoidance of un-needed controversies. Trying to eke out a second here and there between the MR and the RIC commands might look like an unnecessary effort on the part of the RO. I figure it's the ROs responsibility to maximize efficiency between shooters and let the shooter use the time he/she needs. That said, I don't think I've ever seen a shooter misuse/abuse his time on the stage. I've always thought that was my time.

Sarge, How do you deal with the Open and CO shooters that want to dial-in away from the Start location?

And you bring very sage advice to this forum. I, too, cope well with the idiosyncrasies...never really been bothered by the distractions...they certainly aren't what makes me a mediocre shooter! I just don't want to be the RO that does distract someone by not having a good understanding and application of the rules.

A very logical explanation/example as to why the Make Ready location is not necessarily the Start Location! Wish I had thought of that.

I'm suggesting that you don't need to ask the RO about where to Make Ready...it's the competitor's prerogative since there is nothing in the rules that says "...you must make ready where you're told." And if you need that last look at a target to get a sight picture (or whatever it is the optics guys do), that's where the one-step rule 8.7.1 applies. Then you holster your firearm and go safely to the start location and assume the position...all under the direction of the RO who is applying all rules correctly. I understand this might slow down the match a little but, with all due respect jcc7X7, consistency extends a lot further than "... with all the shooters at your stage." I travel to matches a lot and when one club is doing it one way and another, another way, it gets complicated. That's why this thread...to find out the right way, according to the rules. If the rules say that the Make Ready location is the same as the Start location, I'm good with that...no prob. It the rules say it is near the Start location...also good. If this is the general practice...I'm also good, but I'm seeing that there are several reasonable interpretations and it's a bitch to encounter those during make ready, both as a shooter and an RO. That's the issue here. Is the Make Ready location the same as the Start location? 8.7.1 only mentions the Make Ready location...I'm not sure you can stretch that to also mean the Start location.

I couldn't count the times I have made ready from behind the shooting box or away from the barricade with the X's and then moved to the starting location. My reading of 8.3.1.1 is that, once I have assumed the start position, at the start location, I am subject to 8.3.1.1. I've never been called for this and I've never seen anyone called for this. Sometimes it is not convenient to make ready at the Start Location and you are forced to move from the Make Ready Location to the Start Location. I have also allowed optics shooters to take a sight picture away from the start location, at their choice of a Make Ready Location, as long as it is only one step from the "Make Ready" location (8.7.1). When they un-holstered their firearm, following the make ready command, I knew where the Make Ready location was.

I'll bet a lot of people think that is right but I can't find anything in the Rule Book that says that. I suppose it could be stated in the WSB but I don't think I've ever seen that. I think most competitors just make ready somewhere near the Start Location. I know no one wants to enter into a debate about the MR Location with an RO when they are getting ready to shoot...could be real distracting for both parties. I can't find any part of 8.3.1 that applies to the time before the Make Ready command...like where it should occur.

I can't find a concise definition of the "Make Ready" Location in the rule book. In my limited experience I have always presumed that, following the Make Ready command, it is the location within the course of fire that the competitor chooses to draw his firearm from his holster and to prepare the firearm in accordance with the written stage briefing. Therefore, the act of drawing the unloaded firearm from the holster is the triggering action that defines the Make Ready Location. After preparing the firearm (and taking a sight picture if desired), the competitor must then proceed safely to the Start Location and assume the start position. Am I correct on all this? What is the triggering action taken by a PCC competitor that defines the Make Ready Location. Is it the removal of the chamber flag? Is that the location from which the PCC competitor can take one step for a sight picture?

Absolutely. We definitely could use some rulings and probably some re-writing of the rules to make this less onerous. It's a terrible topic to discuss. I usually get people nodding off and avoiding me if I start talking about it, but without a well-ingrained understanding of the applicable rules and a universal application of those rules, we'll have to deal with the disagreement and conflict. I just hate being confronted by a differing interpretation during Make Ready. Additionally, the entire Classification program comes under criticism when competitors are being started differently when shooting classifiers. I'm sure that if everyone agreed with me I'd probably be a GM rather than a C . I'm going to pick some brains when I take my CRO class at the end of July.

I think Troy was making a clarification...to help with the fairly common confusion with the whole Starting Position issue. IMHO, the rules support Troy's position. They are just unclear.

The Default will be greatly diminished in importance and usage if Location only is the triggering mechanism for its application. A WSB would have to read something like this...no more or no less...: e.g. "Starting in Box A" or "Starting within shooting area." I'm a big proponent of unrestricted, undefined...anyway/anywhere Starting Positions. I'd like to see more WSBs look like this: Starting Position: None

From A3: Start position ....................The location, shooting position and stance prescribed by a COF prior to issuance of the "Start signal". Stance ..............................The physical presentation of a person’s limbs (e.g. hands by the side, arms crossed etc.). Shooting position .............The physical presentation of a person’s body (e.g. standing, sitting, kneeling, prone). Location ...........................A physical space within the boundaries of a course of fire.... Hopefully you all will stay engaged with this thread because I want to discuss one other aspect of Start Position...the Shooting Position component. My take on Shooting Position is that it is also a "how" component. When the WSB only states, "Standing in Box A," it is usually interpreted as a "where" and, therefore, imposes the Default. It's somewhat less clear when the WSB only states, "Sitting behind table," because the Default is, by definition, not applicable (since you can't be "...standing erect" if you are sitting. JAFO's position on this issue (below) offers an approach to this dilemma but (respectfully) it may not be supportable and in harmony with the rules. "If a WSB requires sitting/lying down, facing another direction, or doing something else with arms or hands, then I use whatever is stated in the WSB and nothing more." I think it is reasonable to consider the Shooting Position as a "how" since it does not define a Location (physical space) by any stretch of the imagination. By considering both Shooting Position along with Stance as "Hows", the entire issue would be much easier to understand...Shooting Position and Stance deactivate the Default. Only Location will activate the Default. It may require some adjustment to the current practice but it would make things easier when RO-ing or Making Ready. "Starting in Box A".....Default "Standing in Box A".....No Default

Moto, just for clarification, I totally agree with you and am surprised that there are "...many (who) believe "Toes on X's" defines where you start and doesn't deactivate the Default?

From A3: Start position ....................The location, shooting position and stance prescribed by a COF prior to issuance of the "Start signal". Stance ..............................The physical presentation of a person’s limbs (e.g. hands by the side, arms crossed etc.). Shooting position .............The physical presentation of a person’s body (e.g. standing, sitting, kneeling, prone). Location ...........................A physical space within the boundaries of a course of fire.... Why do we almost universally agree that "Hands on X's" defines how you start and deactivates the Default requirement, but many believe "Toes on X's" defines where you start and doesn't deactivate the Default? Is it because A3-Stance doesn't say anything about the lower limbs (feet and legs)? It does, however, say "e.g."

I always thought something like "Toes on Xs" was the triggering language for uncoupling the default start. When the WSB says "hands on Xs," almost everyone turns toward the targets and gets in the ready-to-scoot position. I've never considered hands on Xs to be only a "where to start instruction"...even though it does define the start location...just like Toes on Xs. Have I been doing that wrong all this time? What if "toes on Xs" puts you in a position that does not allow you to be facing downrange?