nuidad

Thanks Chuck. Nothing at https://uspsa.org/nroi/rulings I will try Terri@uspsa.org if no one comes up with a quick reference.

Thanks Moto. I agree. I believe I have read a "ruling/clarification" from DNROI. Do you know of one, and where I could access it? (It appears that the new USPSA website links in the BE forum are no longer usable, which has made my search very frustrating)

Can someone help me find the most recent and definitive DNROI ruling or clarification regarding starting inside/outside the shooting area. I am specifically looking for clarification of whether or not a competitor may start while standing on the fault lines in a classifier. The start position reads: "...standing in box A, facing down range..."

Wait...You've already engaged the final target...that would be the last target you engaged and the boxes weren't on the barrel so now you get an FTSA and three procedurals...someone help me here!. Does the WSB need to read, "All boxes must be on barrels before the competitor's final target engagement." ? That's what I did. Match in the morning. We'll see how it rolls.

I suspect that's what most will do even though there is a procedural for each box not on a barrel (I intended that and clarified that in the WSB following your comment). Thanks. It won't be advantageous for most B and above shooters to spend any time on the boxes.

Thanks all. Sarge and all: I would like to hear your critique of the stage design. I'm here to learn. We don't get a chance to hear from shooters with your experience too often out here in the middle of the ocean. BTW we are the southern-most USPSA match in the US (everything here is the southern-most in the US).

Hammer: No dictating where any targets are required to be shot. The COF requires that the poppers be shot from the downrange-right location because that is the only view of that array. If the shooter chooses to place the box on the barrel at this location he has to have it in place before engaging the last target as per the WSB. Since only poppers are present he will need to have one available after he places the box on the barrel. If he has already downed all four poppers prior to placing the box on the barrel he will have to go to a location with a paper target and engage it or take a procedural penalty. He can avoid that by putting BOB, then engaging last popper. The question is, can he lob a shot in the direction of downed poppers to avoid the procedural? Hope the attachment comes through. You'll notice there are three boxes and four barrels. Shooter has to decide where and if to put boxes on barrels. Top shooters will probably choose to ignore boxes completely. I'll place the downrange-right box so it takes about 4-6 seconds to get the box on the barrel and get back inside the shooting area before engaging last target. Many may choose to ignore that box and take the procedural. The other two boxes will take 3-4 seconds to place box on barrel. 12-17-17 BOB.pdf

Yes...If the WSB said "...box on barrel before the last shot," I believe you could throw a shot in the direction of a paper target or even an array of all fallen poppers and be in compliance. 10.2.7 doesn't mention engagement so we may be on our own with this ruling. 10.2.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at any scoring target with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty per target,

The WSB says the box must be on the barrel before engaging the final target. If the barrel upon which the competitor placed the box affords a view of an array of 3 poppers only, which the competitor has already successfully engaged (all are down), can firing off a last round in the general direction of those downed poppers be considered legitimately "engaging" a target. Is the competitor subject to a procedural penalty for not following the WSB?

Very helpful...thanks.

Chuck. How about when accompanying the RO during scoring and when as described in 5.2.1.6 below? Chamber flag or not? I agree, it's not a big deal but someone may say the rules allow it. Just looking for rule clarification. Does 5.1.2.6 say that it must be carried with the bolt closed on a chamber safety device? or the bolt just locked open? It's a bit unclear. PCC 5.2.1.6 Transporting pistol caliber carbines from the staging area to the start position and back to the staging area from where the shooter unloads and shows clear, the gun must be carried muzzle up or muzzle down with the bolt locked open or closed on a chamber safety flag.

Am I correct in thinking that a PCC shooter may choose to bag the carbine rather than flag it before leaving the COF and that a bagged carbine does not require a chamber flag? Also, does 8.7.3.1 PCC allow an unbagged carbine to be carried without a flag as long as the bolt is locked open? It also seems to imply that a bagged carbine must have its bolt locked open??. 8.3.7.1, PCC: "If clear, hammer down, flag". While continuing to point the carbine safely downrange, the competitor must perform a final safety check of the carbine by closing the bolt on an empty chamber, pulling the trigger, and then inserting the chamber flag or locking the bolt open. The carbine must then be transported with the muzzle reasonably vertically up or down, while scoring is done, and then off the stage to a rack or case. Carbines may also be cased and transported off the stage in the case.

Is this an Ogive...in the context to scoring?

Let's also not forget to ensure that steel is not available from less than 23 feet. Since most shooters don't measure distances to targets, it is essential that that situation is not present in a COF. I witnessed a very unfortunate instance where a father, accompanying his young son at his first match, was DQ'd on the first stage for shooting a popper that was visible from an unsafe distance.

Sounds very logical...thanks Miranda. I've always just called that "evidence of a crown" Wait till I throw out the term "Ogive" at my next match. NO ONE will argue with me!!

When reading 9.5.5, could the etc. be referring to an "ogive" 9.5.5 Enlarged holes in paper targets which exceed the competitor’s bullet diameter will not count for score or penalty unless there is visible evi-dence within the remnants of the hole (e.g. a grease mark or a "crown" etc.), to eliminate a presumption that the hole was caused by a ricochet or splatter.

Are you sure they weren't saying "overlay?" Pretty sure. Could have been a miscommunication but I've heard it a couple of times and since it is related to the physical configuration to a bullet, and therefore the hole it would leave, I doubt it.

So how is all that related to verifying a scoring hit on a target. I have heard about a tool that used to be used when evaluating a target hit that was inserted into the hole. Is an ogive also a name for a tool? In a recent discussion one post said " Without an ogive, or other evidence of a hit..." That is the context I've heard it in before.

I occasionally hear the term "ogive" in the discussion of scoring hits on targets. What does an ogive look like on a target? How would an ogive occur? What's the difference between an ogive and a crown? I would hate to be accused of not knowing an ogive from a hole in the ground.

On Big Island, happy hour is 23 hours and 1 hour sad hour. We don't do our sad hour at the range...no hatred.

Same here, Eddie. We do, however, start running out of enthusiastic re-setters as the day goes on...no matter their good character. Our matches do run a bit long and folks get tired. I think the match length is probably extended by around 25 - 35%... that's an additional hour or hour so per match (we had 5 mult. Div. shooters out of a total of 11 shooters last week). Some of the issues can probably be addressed through better, more efficient stage design and match planning and we're working on that. Many have suggested running a separate "second gun" squad? I'm not sure how that would help in the long run but I'm open to all suggestions. Do you folks do that?

Since the inclusion of the PCC Division, we are seeing a lot more competitors shooting two Divisions (pistol and PCC usually). I'm hearing a lot of negative comments from shooters in another thread regarding this but someone has to be doing it successfully. I'd like to hear from you if you are doing it successfully. What are you doing to make it work? Is it being accepted by the single Division shooters?

I'd like to hear from someone who's running multiple Divisions successfully. What are you doing to make it work? I think I'll throw this out in another topic thread.

We are trying to avoid discouraging people from shooting a match because we are allowing multiple Divisions. I also agree, we could probably just require declaration of a match score Division, and squad the multiple Division shooters separately, shooting their second Division last, using the... 6.2.4 Subject to the prior approval of the Match Director...language in the rules. That would probably be more fair to everyone. I'll suggest that to the MD prior to the next match. It should make sorting the roster and scoring easier and less prone to error.

Yes to all...it does put some additional burden on the single Division shooters. So far everyone here has been very supportive to the multiple Division shooters, but we want to (at least) keep it fair as far as scoring. We are now putting all the PCC shooters (all are multiple Division shooters) at the end of the stage. Question is, would that be fair if they were shooting their PCC's for match score (per the 6.2.4). Do the rules support requiring the multiple Division shooters to declare a match score Division and shoot that first AT LEVEL I MATCHES?