38superman

I recognize that a 6 or 6.5 mm might be better suited for Precision Rifle. That's not really the issue. I am still in learning mode having only shot one such match to date. At this point it wouldn't matter what blaster I show up with, I will not scare the elite shooters,..... yet. Last fall I showed up with a .223 and a ballistics calculator for my first match. I was not well prepared as the .223 had never fired a shot beyond 100 yds and I didn't have enough of my pet load so I had to shoot factory ammo. I scored about 52% of the winners score. Nothing to write home about but a decent first effort. Was getting solid hits out to about 550. The issue now is to get the .308 shooting more consistently. It may not match the more exotic calibers but should be a step up from the AR. My best load to date is 44.5 Varget behind a Nosler 168 Custom Competition bullet. That load at magazine length is a pretty consistent 3/4 MOA performer but only produces about 2600 fps from my 26" barrel. I bought some 155 SMK Palmas to try. They have a high B.C. and my hope was that I could find an accurate load that would push the lighter bullet to 2900-3000. The problem is that high B.C. comes at a price. At 2.800 OAL, the long slender ogive doesnt touch the lands until it moves .210 thou. I shouldn't be a pessimist before I send a single one down range but that's just too much freebore. I will be very surprised if it performs as hoped. The gun desperately needs a better trigger (Timney maybe?) but I don't have the tools or experience to do it myself and I'm not sure who to trust with it. Tls

I know the military produced many fine snipers armed wht the M40 and M24. It is also obvious that there are many tack driving .308s in the world. That said, my Hvy Barrel M700 is driving me to drinking. I have been shooting groups and doing my due diligence with load development. The rifle shows flashes of greatness and potential. It often shoots 1/2 moa 5 shot groups. Just as often it shoots 1 to 1 1/4" groups. Many times I have put 4 in one ragged hole only to have the group ruined by a flyer that more than doubled the size of the group. If you took the average of all the groups fired it would be somewhere between .8 to .9 inches. In short, the guns is capable but not consistent. I'm sure I can improve it with a better trigger, and I would like to play about with the seating depth. However,..... It was my intent to put it in a chassis and turn it into a magazine fed competitor for precision rifle matches. For that reason, I have been loading to mazagine length OAL. (2.810" max). When loaded to that depth, the throat is long enough to have bullet freebore more that 200 thousanths. I could seat it out another 080 and still run in an Accuracy International magazine, but thats still more bullet jump than I would like. Even if I were willing to load it single shot, a bullet seated anywhere near the lands is barely in the neck with all but the heaviest bullets. Go really heavy and the bullet has the trajectory of a mortar round. Maybe a custom chamber Palma throated barrel is the answer. Don't know. Suggestions?

+1

I just started loading my first ever purchase of Berger bullets. I had high hopes for the 73 gr match BT. Unfortunately, I experienced an issue I’ve never seen in 40 years of hand loading. When seating the bullets (Nosler brass) there was insufficient neck tension to securely hold the bullet in place. Resistance felt normal when the bullet engaged the neck, but as the bullet continued to seat, resistance became unusually light. I pushed the nose of the loaded round against my bench and buried the bullet with little effort. I thought I had a bad case but subsequent loadings produced the same problem. I tried some Hornady and Remington cases and the issue persisted. That pretty much ruled out the brass as the problem. I decided to try some different bullets and loaded a few Sierra SMKs and Hornady 75 grainers into the Nosler brass. They produced normal resistance and were snug after seating. (I was able to bury a Sierra but only with excessive force). With my curisosity piqued, I checked the diameter of an SMK with a micrometer and it measured .2244 I measured the expander ball in the die and it read .2224 The Berger measured .2248 at the base where the boat tail chamfer intersects the body of the bullet. However the shank or body of the bullet appears to have a slight but continuous taper along the entire length of the bullet from boat tail to the tangent of the ogive. I don’t know if this is a bad bullet lot or something related to my tooling or technique. I need to solve this issue. I really would like to use these bullets but I can't risk a bullet set back That could be disastrous. I emailed Berger tech support for their thoughts but no reply yet. I invite anyone that has experience with this particular bullet to share their findings (and load data). Tls

I don't believe the flyer in any of the groups pictured came on the first shot. They usually came somewhere in the middle of the string. The 1st group shown was the best of the day. It was 4 shots into a 0.3 group that opened up into a .6 group with the flyer. If I had to compete tomorrow, that would be the load. However, I am getting ready for a precision rifle match. i am constrained by having to load to magazine length so I can't play with the seating depth as much as I would like. I can't load anywhere close to the lands as I would in a benchrest shoot. There is a fairly significant bullet jump. Somewhere around .138" I notice that all the flyers drifted to the right. There was a full value wind blowing left to right across the range. It was about 10 mph and fairly constant. I have to believe that it was the wind gusting,.... or something I did or failed to do in my case prep. What I wouldn't give to have access to a 100 yd indoor range for load testing. Tls

I spent the afternoon at the range working up loads for my Hvy Barrel .308 Remington. I'm trying to settle on a load for a Precision Rifle Match that will happen in September. It seemed that every group I shot today had 4 really tight shots with a flyer. I don't know what to make of it. I get those groups from time to time but today I had a boat load of them. I have to believe it was the wind gusting. The question now becomes how to evaluate them. Throw out the flyer? Measure the group and include the flyer? I don't want to skew the results, but,... There has to be some way to differentiate between a 5 shot group that has 4 shots in ragged hole with a flyer, and a group of the same size that printed all over the paper.... Tls

64, It was Huntsville

This is a very large gun shop located in North Alabama. Their shelves are stocked with both new and used guns which are mixed together. They are not behind a counter and are accessable from the sales floor. When I picked up the gun I didn't notice any obvious signs of wear. It had the original box, all paperwork, owners manual, a magazine still in unopened packaging, so I assumed it was new. The only way I could have know was the color of the price tag, used guns are not identified as "used" but they are tagged with a different color price tag. I didn't know that at the time. Once I paid for it and the transfer was done I owned it. Hence the title for this thread "Hard Lesson Learned". Never assume anything. Always ask BEFORE you put your money down. At this point, I'm not going to worry about what I should have done. I just need to make this gun right. The question is how best to do that.

I'm not sure how to handle this. I just brought home my shiny new M&P 10, or so I thought. Turns out it was a used gun and I didn't realize it until I had already paid for it and filled out the transfer. Looked good, until I got it home. The first thing I noticed was that the spring loaded latch on the operating handle was frozen. Closer inspection revealed that back of the operating handle was bent. Looks like maybe someone dropped the rifle and that's where it landed. I just replaced it with a Bravo Company AR10 handle which seems to work fine. Today I loaded so test rounds for it. The bullet has no cannelure so I tried to chamber and eject a round to make sure I wouldn't get set back on the bullet. The round chambered but I couldn't eject it. The action was frozen. I had to take a hammer and tap the operating handle to get the round out of the chamber. When the round came out of the chamber it looked like it had been dropped in gravel and trampled. There are scuff / burnish marks all over the case and the bullet is gouged. Photos don't do it justice. The round really looks rough. I inspected the action and chamber as best I could but don't see anything visibly wrong. I guess it could just be a tight chamber. I think I will buy a box of factory rounds to see if they will cycle normally. If so I guess a set of small based dies is in my future. Otherwise I suppose the rifle will have to go back to S&W for safety inspection and test fire. That's really tough since the factory warranty is reserved for the original owner.

I've been using Nosler brass which probably isn't as small internally as the LC but there is a noticable difference between Nosler and Remington, (at least in my .223 loads there is). I think I'll try some Hornady Brass and / or Winchester and see how that works out. Also think I can push the OAL out .010 and still fit the magazine. That should show some improvement. Tls

Steve, The Bergers I bought are Hybrids which are supposed to give you the benefits (High Ballistic Coefficent) of the VLD bullets without the sensitivity to seating depth. It has a tangent ogive at the bearing surface and transitions to a secant ogive forward of the bearing surface. They may not work well in my rifle but I'm going to experiment with a wide variety of bullet weights and styles. If they work, fine. If not, so be it. Sounds like the Hornady 178s come highly recommended. They are definately on my shopping list. I will probably try the 175 SMK as well Tony P.S . I'm glad to hear you made it to Woody's practice day. Sounds like you're ready to jump in. Fun stuff isn't it? Like most things, its a lot harder than it looks.

Interesting, Look at the graphic below. The Nosler handbook says that you can go up to 46 gr of Varget and they got over 2800 with a 24" barrel. It also says they got around 2750 at 44 grains in their test rifle. I didn't. I've gone up to 44.5 and gotten only 2658 and I'm starting to see the primers flatten a bit. I would be very hesitant to push this past about 2700 or 45 grains of powder which ever comes first. Some manuals show max loads of Varget to be 43.5 with their 168's. Perhaps I'm just too conservative, but I prefer to err on the side of caution.

I'll give them a try. What powders do you like with the Hornady 178? I'm having a tough time getting 168's to run that fast. RE15 maybe?

I was just checking out 155 Berger Hybrids for my .308. I notice that even though they are 13 gr. lighter, they are about .055 longer. That means if loaded to magazine length I am giving up a little internal capacity. I'm hoping to drive this bullet at least 100 -200 fps faster that the 168's. Higher velocity and a slightly higher ballistic coeficient will certainly help.

Rob, My experience is limited and I'm just going by what I have seen so far. With that in mind I will probably leave the barrel alone, at least for now. I think I will just try to tune the trigger and put the gun in a better chassis. I hope to keep the weight to no more that 13 lbs. Just out of curiosity, what do you shoot and what does the gun weigh?

Hi Rob, I only thought to cut it down because most custom builds are around the 20" length. It would cut weight and make the gun more portable. The expense, and time are major concerns. Also don't know if having the barrel cut and crowned is going to affect my accuracy. It also may render my load data invalid and force me to start over on load development. I will propably try to tune the factory trigger before purchasing a new one. I will look at the McRee. Thanks for the tip.

Registration for the Steel City Precison Rifle Match is about to open. The match has moved from November last year to September for 2014 and will be a 2 day event. I will definately enter, but I am undecided about which rifle to shoot. I could go with the AR 15 I shot last year. There will be no targets beyond 725 yds, so I may stick with it. I just want to develop a better load with heavier bullets. I could also go with my Hvy barrel .308 M700. The problem is that the gun is out of the box stock and not competition ready. First I would have to put it in a decent chassis. In stock configuration there is no magazine. Being a lefty my options are somewhat limited. The AI chassis is a possibility but it is massively heavy. The gun already tips the scale at 11.5 lbs. I'm leaning toward an XLR. The rifle also has a 26" barrel. I could have it cut down, but do I have the time? Would I even want to considering that I want all the velocity I can get from the .308? The factory trigger is unacceptable for competition, needs to be replaced with something decent. Timney? I've started developing loads for both guns pending a decision. The 700 is the early favorite. Right now I'm just shooting 3 shot groups to set working max for several bullet and powder combinations. However, the big beast is showing a lot of promise. These 3 shots groups are running from .25 to .6 MOA at 100 yds with Varget and Nosler 168's. I started testing the AR with 75 gr Hornadys last week. I started with about 22 gr Varget and 5 shot groups were running just over .5 MOA. Unfortunately, as the power charge climbed over 23gr. the groups started to open up to over 1". NOT good. I will continue the testing with the Hornady bullets, but also bought some 73 gr Bergers and some 8208 XBR to try. Got to do better or the AR is on the shelf for this match.

My favorite load for my AR (20" barrel) is 25gr Varget behind the 69 gr SMK. This produces around 2830 FPS at the muzzle. I should add that I tested with Nosler brass which seems to use about 1/2 gr less powder to produce the same velocity.

Okay, somebody convince me. I really would like to hear the reason why people that win do so with a bolt gun. Why would a bolt gun shooting exactly the same caliber be an advantage? When I first started shooting back in the 70's, the consensus of opinion was that no semi-auto could hang with a good bolt action. I was told that one big advantage of the bolt gun was the chassis, because a one piece bedded stock gave better support to the barrel/action. Another widely held held notion was that the chamber / cartridge case had to be a loose fit in the gas guns to be reliable in feeding and ejection. This was the underlying reason that manufacturers sold small base dies for the SA guns. Conventional wisdom stated that a bolt gun allows a reloaded case to fit better and align with the bore more consistently. If any of that was ever true, I can't see it anymore. With modern manufacturing techniques and the proliferation of free floated barrels, I just don't see any significant difference in accuracy between my bolt and gas guns. In fact, in 40+ years of load development, the very best group I ever shot was from a varmint model AR-15. A 1/2 MOA rifle is a 1/2 MOA rifle regardles of the platform that launches the bullet. I could see an advantage if the bolt gun permitted hotter loads or had a longer barrel that translated into higher velocity. However, most of the tubes I have seen on Precision Rifle bolt guns are around 20 to 22 inches. No big difference there. Could the answer be reliability? A good quality AR that is well maintained usually runs flawlessly. That just doesn't seem to be an issue. BTW, a sticky bolt on extraction, or a bolt that wont close over a reloaded round will shut down a bolt gun just as well as a gasser. So what am I missing here? Where is the advantage of the bolt action? Enlighten me. Tls

I've seen this before, but never in a factory round. Sometimes under very specific circumstances, a fired round doesn't generate sufficient pressure to expand the neck properly and get a good seal against the wall of the chamber. This allows a small amount of gas to seep around the neck and bleed back into the chamber between the brass and the chamber wall. This can cause the type of dents you are seeing. I had this issue years ago in a 30-06 shooting IMR 4064. There is absolutely no flattening of the primer. Except for the firin pin indention, they look pristine. Judging from the photo, I'd say these rounds are producing relatively low peak pressure. I could be way off base but It's just a thought. Tls

I have 2 AR's for competition. One is for carbine matches and has a 16in barrel with an EOTech 512. Empty weight is 7.1 lbs. The other is for 3-gun / Precision Rifle. As configured for Precision Rifle- 20" barrel, PRS stock, Horus Falcon Scope in a Burris PEPR detachable mount, Harris bipod. This configuration weighs in at 12 1/2 lbs empty. As configured for 3-gun- The Horus is replaced by a Vortex HD and the bipod comes off. This drops the weight to 11.3 lbs empty. I can get that down to about 10.3 by replacing the PRS with an ACE Skeleton buttstock. FYI, a Magpul 30 round mag fully loaded with 55 grainers tips my scale at 1 lb 0.9 oz. Tls

I thought a lot about a .243 in an AR-10 format. It is, after all just a .308 necked down to 6mm. .308 magazines would work fine. I'm not sure if there would be any advantage in a .243 over a .260, but I can think of one disadvantage. A bigger heavier bullet makes a bigger splash both on steel and in the dirt. The .260 rounds should make it easier to call hits and misses. With my .223 pushing 69 gr SMKs at 2700 fps, I sometimes wondered if my "misses" really were misses. I'd bet that with some of the heavier steel plates at 750+ yds, some hits just didn't have the energy to move the plate enough for the spotter to see it. Tls

Steve, Those are excellent groups. Accuracy should not be an issue for you. I know it's a pain to do brass prep, but for a typical match you shouldn't need more than 200 rounds. I wouldn't bother on a 3gun or carbine match but this is precision rifle and demands a little more from us. Fortunately I have several hundred rounds of new Nosler brass which is very consistent and ready to load. The necks even come pre-chamfered. I never tried the 75 gr Hornady, but I get about 2850 from 69 gr SMKs over 25 gr of Varget with no signs of pressure (20 inch barrel). It could be that Varget is just a little too fast for a bullet that heavy. TLS

I am fast approching my 10th anniversary as a member of USPSA. As I reflect on it, I can scarcely begin to mentally catalog all the majors and club matches. I couldn't even begin to guess how many rounds I sent down range in that time. What does stand out is the fun I shared with some of the best people I've ever met. I wouldn't take anything for those golden days spent on the range. Thanks to everyone that made it happen and made it special. I'm looking forward to the next 10. Tls

My favorite bullet for my 45 is the Montana Gold 200gr FP. It has a solid jacket base like a hollow point so it doesn't smoke like a lead based bullet. It does have some exposed lead on the truncated nose but that doesn't seem to be a contamination issue. Most of all, the MG 200 is extraordinarily accurate in my Springer. They are relatively expensive and not always available but always my bullet of choice. Second choice would be Zero 230 HP. If shooting Single Stack Minor, my 9mm bullet of choice would be Montana Gold 147 FP totally enclosed, followed closely by the Zero 147 gr HP.