38superman

If you are set on the Grendel, check out Rich Dettelhouser at CanyonCreekCustom.com. He has a custom build configuration for the Grendel on his site. I'm sure he could put one together for you with a side charge handle. I gave serious consideration to one of these myself, but I can't get around the concerns about components. Brass is available but the 6.5 Grendel is still a fringe cartridge and there's no way around that. Magazines and component availability may be sketchy. I've never shot one but it sure looks good on paper. Plenty of pics and videos out there with shooters getting great groups. Hits on 1000 yd targets are not uncommon. It seems to be about all the horsepower you could wring out of an AR-15 platform.

Based on your original question, you already have a DPMS LR which I believe is 308. That should be capable of 1000yd shooting. It won't be as flat as a 260 or 6.5 CM but if you know your trajectory, you can get your hits. If you feel you must change caliber, Remington markets a .243 that I think is made by DPMS. I would try to get my hands on one of those. Should be a simple barrel swap and nothing more. Tls

Well for right now just to do some shooting at my club and at a friends house who has a range on his farm out to 500 yards. Not looking to compete long range at this time but eventually may want to. just enjoy developing loads and want to do some long range group shooting. If you just want to do some shooting out to 500 for pure fun, you are on the right track. However, if you really think you might try your hand at competition, the .223 is not the way to go for Precision Rifle type matches. Go with the Rem 700 but consider a different caliber. I'm not sure what is available from Remington but a .260 or even a .243 would get you shooting at 500 and still be suitable for long range competition later. If you get into the sniper matches, you will eventually upgrade the rifle but with the right caliber choice, you can ease into it. Put your money in glass and load development.

Remington will give you many more options when you want to build off the action. Chassis builders for example, always have inlets for short action Rem. Others, not so much.

Okay, somebody clue me in. I've never been to Woody's but I know its one of the regional shoots for the PRS. I also keep hearing references to Designated Marksman matches. When are these held and are they set up for teams or individual shooters? Tls

I know exactly how you feel. Its your first match and you don't know what to expect. I remember being very concerned that I would embarrass myself. Make up your mind to shoot your best game with whatever skills you possess and let the chips fall where they may. Think of it like an NFL pre-season game. They are keeping score but it doesn't mean anything. It's just a tune up. This will be a learning experience. After the first one, you will have a much better idea of how to prepare and you can make list of do's and don'ts. I sat down the next day and made notes about how I needed to change my equipment, my ammunition, tactics, etc. We are all competitors by nature and want to do well, but set that aside this time and just soak it up. Tls

Okay, I don't know your skill level so I will make this pretty basic. The process is simple and works for any rifle caliber. Bullet selection depends on the task, such as varmint shooting, target or hunting. Pick a bullet for the specific task and that you want to try in your gun. Go to the loading manual and pick a powder that is appropriate for that bullet. The manual will list a variety of powder and bullet combinations along with minimum and maximum loads. Never start with the max load. Always back off at least 10% and work up. In a .308 I would start about 4 grains of powder below the listed max and work up in 0.5 grain increments. These incremental powder charges are commonly referred to as ladder charges. For a hunting rifle I usually load 3 rounds of each charge. For target I shoot 5 round groups with each charge. Starting with the light loads and working your way up, watch for signs of excessive pressure, i.e. flattened primers, pierced primers, sticky extraction, etc. If you see signs of excessive pressure, stop there and go no further. Shoot each group very carefully from a rest and document the results. Rinse and repeat. I typically repeat each ladder charge 5 times and then take an average of the group sizes. This will diminish the human element and avoid skewing the data too much due to the occasional flyer. If you don't have a chronograph, get one. For a reloader it is the best money you can spend. The chrono will take a lot of guess work out of load development. Once the testing is complete you will find that one or two particular loads perform better in your gun. For hunting, the hope is that this "sweet spot" comes at or near max. That is where you get the best ballistic performance along with accuracy. For a target load, I will happily sacrifice a couple hundred fps for a load that stacks in a tight group. (Depending on the range of course.) If you don't get the results you want try a different powder and repeat the process. Some barrels tend to do their best work with faster powders vs. the slow. Some barrels prefer lighter bullets vs. heavy. Every gun has slight differences in chamber and barrel harmonics. Experiment to find what works. Once you find a load you like, you can also play around with the overall length. Some bullets are more sensitive to seating depth than others. However, use caution. Seating too long or short can create issues. There is tons of documentation on the subject so do your homework. Until you have a good understanding of how and why to do this, stick to the OAL that is given in the manual. Below you will find a range card for my .270 The loads listed may or may not be safe in any other rifle so follow the procedure and work up if you want to use them. They are offed only as an example of the process I use. YMMV. Tls 270 Loads.pdf

Your method is not wrong but there are other ways. When neck sizing I simply measure the O.D. of the neck on a loaded round. Measure several rounds and roll the cartridge to take measurements in more than one spot. As mentioned earlier, unturned brass will vary in thickness. Once you have a good sampling, take an average. Subtract .002 from the O.D. of the neck and that's the bushing I use. I have no experience with Lee collet dies but this my the method for the Redding S type neck sizer. Tls

Lee, I don't turn the necks,... yet. I suppose that's about the only thing I don't do except to clean up the flash holes and sort the bullets. I will probably start turning necks when I get the tooling I want. Anything beyond that I will leave to the benchrest boys.

Earlier in this thread, JKSniper asked a question that I have thought about a lot. When discussing the extremes of case prep and benchrest style obsession at the loading bench, he asked the following: "Are your results really that much better than quality factory match grade ammo that it justifies the investment in time and $ to achieve them?" I responded with an impassioned manifesto on the virtues of handloading vs buying premium ammo. However, I still feel I really can't answer whether the investment in time & money is justified without quantifying the results. Just how much improvement if any, does all that work yield? To answer that, I have decided to embark on a little laboratory experiment. The idea is to duplicate the factory ammo with the same or similar components. The only variable will be the way the ammo was assembled. The results will tell whether there is any difference, and if so, is it substantial or marginal. The process will involve three phases. 1. I will shoot the first strings with factory Nosler Custom Competition w/ 175gr HPBT match bullets. Two boxes will yield (4) groups of 10 shots. 2. These same cases will be loaded with the same Nosler bullet to essentially the same velocity as the factory load The primers are Federal Match and the powder will be Varget or possibly Re15 However there will be no special attention given to the reloading process. The brass will be reloaded with no case prep at all except cleaning and visual inspection. The loading will be done on a single stage O-ring press with standard RCBS full length dies and seated to the same OAL as the factory. Once the powder measure is set, the charges will be thrown and not individually measured. Again (4) 10 shot groups. 3. Finally, these same cases and components will be reloaded with all the precision I can muster. Cases cleaned & inspected under lighted magnifier Cases trimmed to length, case mouths chamfered Primer pockets cleaned to remove residue Cases sorted by weight Neck sized in Redding S type bushing dies Primer seated Each powder charge individually weighed Bullets seated with Forster benchrest seating die Rounds checked for concentricity. Any round with greater than .002 runout rejected. Fire and document Anyone care to guess what will be revealed?

That's very interesting about the RCBS dies. Any thing that is manufactured is subject to defect I guess. That said, I own 16 sets of RCBS dies and have never seen, or even heard of this before. Has to be pretty rare. In any case, they will take care of it. RCBS has outstanding customer service. FWIW, I've used the dies from every major manufacturer but my favorite is Redding. Tls

Dj, What you experienced is to be expected. All chambers are cut slightly larger and longer than SAAMI standards for ammunition. This is so that any factory ammo will chamber easily. However, chambers sizes are not absolute. They are cut with reamers and there are minimum and maximum tolerances to every dimension. When you fire the factory ammo, internal pressure will force the brass to take the shape of the chamber, what you refer to as fire forming. The brass will spring back slightly but should still chamber in your gun and is now a nearly perfect fit. Most precision reloaders would neck size only to avoid disturbing the body of the case. After you neck size and fire several times the brass will grow a bit and become hard to chamber. At this point, you will want to full length size or use a body die to bump the shoulder back to reset the headspace on the case. This is where it gets tricky. As stated, your chamber is a bit long. Fire forming will cause the case to stretch until it fits between the shoulder of the chamber and the face of the bolt. When you size the body of the case you don't want to push the shoulder back too much. Constant stretching and compression can cause the case to thin just ahead of the cartridge base and might separate on firing. I seriously doubt that the RCBS dies are cut too long. Get a headspace gage from Dillon or Wilson. It is the best $30 you will ever spend on reloading. Also, make sure you have a good set of dial calipers. These tools will tell you exactly what is happening. The gage has a chamber cut into it that matches the SAAMI standard for that caliber. The gage also has a slight groove milled into the base. When you set your body or full length die, adjust it until the case fits into the gage properly. A case that protrudes beyond the base of the gage is too long; tighten the die down accordingly A case that sinks past the bottom of the grooved cut is too short; back the die off. Once the cases fit this gage they are reset to factory spec and will chamber in yours, or any other gun of the same caliber. If you only fire them in your gun then you need not shrink them back to factory. Only bump them a few thousandths until they chamber easily in your gun. This will avoid working the brass too much. Tls

It's your birthday and the first greeting you get comes from Smith & Wesson.

I decided to take the advice of others and tested some of my more promising loads in 10 shot groups. This photo was the first of 4 groups with Berger 155s and RE 15 at varying seating depths. Eight rounds were well under 3/4 inch but two flyers opened it up to 1.040. Got to find more consistency. I guess its time to tighten up the reloading process a bit. I ordered a Redding Type S micro adjustable sizer die and a Hornady concentricity guage. I had been full length sizing and seating using an RCBS competition die set. I will be neck sizing cases, sorting brass by weight and checking concentricity in the future. It's worth noting that the RCBS dies were producing rounds that were (with a few exceptions) generally within .002 in run out. Don't know what more I could do other than turning the necks. Weighing cases revealed some interesting information. After trimming to length, 50 Nosler cases showed a varience of 1.2 grains from high to low. 50 Lapua cases chosen at random from a new lot of brass were trimmed and weighed and resulted in a 2.6 grain varience. The Lapua brass was on average 7 grains heavier. Necks are quite a bit thicker also. No surprise about that. Testing the Bergers is ongoing, and I am now working up some loads with 175 SMKs Stay tuned for results. Tls

JK, Is the effort required to produce reloads of higher quality than commercial match grade ammo worthwhile? Its a valid question. For me I have to say that it is. Shooting sports are a hobby (for me a passion) but reloading is also a hobby all it's own. I've been doing it for 44 years and it feeds the perfectionist side of my personality. For a long time my focus was working with hunting rifles and tuning them to try to increase the effective range. I own a .270 that is a superb deer rifle but is so accurate with certain reloads that it can easily double as a varmint gun. I have recorded every group this gun has ever fired and the overall aggregate shows it to be a true minute of angle gun. With a 90 grain Sierra and IMR 4350 I can get 3500 fps from a 22" barrel and it will print 1/2 to 3/4 groups with almost monotonous regularity. You are correct that when people brag about their results, they tend to present the best of the best. That's human nature. However, what I'm doing isn't cherry picking, it is documenting every round that goes down the tube. I am an engineer and my profession is only concerned with results that are repeatable an verifiable. Nothing else is relevant. My mission now is to wring every last bit of accuracy from this Heavy Barrel .308 Surprisingly, it is only the second non-sporter weight rifle I've ever owned and it sat in my gun safe for more than 10 years before I ever put glass on it. It seems to have great potential but I haven't found consistency with it. Perhaps that is the fault of the shooter,... but finding (and correcting) faults in your shooting technique is part of the process too. Back to your original question. The journey is as much the fun as the destination. Separating the wheat from the chaff is its own reward. Just going to the store and buying premium ammo might serve the purpose if shooting a match was the only goal. Winning a match as you have would be a blast, but I think doing it with ammo I crafted would make it that much sweeter. Its that feeling of accomplishment that keeps things interesting. I hope I didn't get too carried away with this post, but your question really made me think about why I do this. Your opinions are duly noted and your feedback is always appreciated. Tls

I realize this is a pretty old thread, but I thought I'd put my 2 cents in. I was seriously considering buying an M&P Pro Series w/ 5" barrel. A local dealer has a pretty good price on them and I like the C.O.R.E. model for a possible open division blaster in 3-gun. I was just about ready to seal the deal when I noticed a significant amount of side to side movement in the slide to frame fit. I suppose this could be corrected, but I just couldn't bring myself to drop the money on the counter. What ever the "spec" is, I am not comfortable with it. I would have expected a Pro Series gun to be tighter. Tls

I can't imagine any manufacturer's match ammo assembled with anywhere near the precision that is described in JkSnipers post. My handloads often produce better results than comparable match grade factory ammo. That's without the extremes that would include concentricity gages, etc.

DF I really don't think what we do is much different. If you look at the image below, it shows how I track and develop my load data. The only real difference in the method I use and the one you describe is that I don't do my initial test at .002 off the lands. I do weigh every powder charge but usually don't sort cases. The Nosler brass I use is pretty consistent. I prefer to do the first series at SAAMI OAL. This is the depth that is used to develop the max loads in the reloading manuals so I try to duplicate it. On the first series of testing at Magazine length is where the pressures will be the highest. When the subsequent loads are fired at various depths the lengths get incrementally longer and pressure / velocity drops due to increased area inside the case. Do you do all your testing at 200 yds? You make a good point about the neck tension affecting powder burn. What do you consider minimum neck engagement? I am not comfortable with less than 0.150" Thanks for the info and taking the time to post.

JKSniper, That all sounds like good advice. However, I would point out that I only shoot 3 shot groups when I am trying to establish a working max. After I find my max, I shoot a series of (5) five shot groups to validate the accuracy with each charge. I think 5 shot groups are reavealing when you look at the aggregate rather than any one group. The way I do it requires 250 rounds for each powder / bullet combination. I don't want to burn up the barrel, 6 million dollars in components and 10 years of my life doing load development on a single rifle. I visited the best stocked ammo dealer in town today but could find very little in the way of premium grade .308 The only thing I could find was Nosler Custom Competition 175's. I might give those a try if I can bring myself to buy 20 rounds for 30$ I really believe that a lot of issues are related to a trigger that is just too heavy. When I line up the shot and squeeze the trigger the gun requires ever more pressure before it trips the sear. Sometimes I am forcing the shot because I have to hold the sight picture way too long. I don't have a trigger gage but I'm guessing its somewhere around 6 - 7 lbs. I now refer to it as the gorilla trigger. Fixing this is the first order of business. Tls

Nuke, Actually I kind of like the idea of trying my hand at F-class. Benchrest shooters are purists and go to great extremes. They are obsessive and the lengths they go to on case prep etc. are way beyond what us mere mortals would do. Most hunters are more than happy with 3 shots in 1 to 1 1/2" at 100. Precision Tactical shooters want as much as they can get but 1/2 to 3/4 moa is generally acceptable for a sniper match. Never shot F class so I don't know what it takes to be competitive in that arena. I do know that short range benchrest guys shoot bug hole groups routinely but their equipment is extreme. I spent the day at the range today and I thought I would take Walt Bergers advice. He states in his manual that the sweet spot for seating depth is in a range of about .040" He recommends starting at touching or nearly touching the rifling and changing depth in increments of .040 until you have about .160 freebore At each depth shoot (2) three shot groups. One depth should produce significantly better results than the others. That is the "sweet spot". I tried this with the Berger 155 Hybrids because I already had some on my bench. The best 3 shot group in my preliminary testing with Re15 was at 44.5 grs. when loaded to mag length. I decided to go with one five shot group instead of 2 three shot and vary length in .030 increments. The results I got are shown below. The longest OAL that would be held securely by the neck was 2.956". This produced a 1/2" group At 2.926 I put 4 in a 1/4" group and pulled the last shot high. It was me. I knew it when I broke the shot. The next group opened up quite a bit and had a very large ES caused by the 3rd round in the string having a considerably lower velocity. The real surprise was the last group. It was the shortest OAL at 2.856 but the velocity jumped way up. Every shot in the string was over 2900, when the previous string was at 2650. I still cant figure out why no change other than a .030 deeper bullet would produce an additional 250 fps. Clearly the rifle liked the depth of the second string much better. It really goes to show the dramatic difference seating depth makes with certain bullets. Tls

Nuke, Sorry man. I didn't mean to choke you. Maybe I was overreaching a bit, but the point I was trying to make is that I'm an excellent marksman and experienced enough to call my shots off a bench rest. If my gun / load is misbehaving or if I'm just having a crappy day or if the wind is messing with me I can tell the difference. I am not an experienced benchrest competitor but having shot with the local club, it was clear that consistent 1/4 inch groups at 100 yds. is what it takes to be competitive. IIRC, The match winner that day had an aggregate score of .179 As several shooters have loaned me their guns I found that I could hang with them with the right equipment. I don't read wind as well as they do but put up some very respectable scores. Everyone that has posted on this thread had good points to make and suggestions. I think I made a mistake by trying to go to lighter bullets because my velocity with the 168's wasn't where I expected it to be. I should have been more patient and worked with some slower powders instead of lighter bullets. My feeling at this point is to start working with the 175 / 185 Sierras and Bergers and see if I can get them to shoot at mag length. I still have plans to put the barreled action in a McRees Precision chassis and add a Timney trigger. I will shoot the gun until it is time to rebarrel it and possibly go to a .260 or simliar caliber, but I haven't given up on this particular rifle just yet. I firmly believe the .308 can do better and so can I. I won't stop until I get plumb potential from the gun and the guy behind the trigger. Tls

jriggs, So it is your position that if there are inconsistent results in groups, it can only be the shooter. No other possibility exists? In a machine rest with the human element removed no anomaly is possible. Groups will always be the same You will never see a flyer.

The source of my frustration. Seen below are some of the 3 shot groups I made while trying to find a working max with Varget. Yes that first picture is indeed 3 shots. When I find a promising load I shoot five shot groups to prove it out. I got a few of those that were good enough to tease me. Just too many like this:

You make a good point Dave. If the mechanics are the same, the results should be consistent. The shooter is always suspect and I'm sure some of my wounds are self inflicted. That said,..... the only way to get consistent mechanical results is to minimize the variables to absolute 0. Commercial brass is good but not perfect. Neck thickness varies, flash holes vary, wall thickness changes as brass weights (even within the same lot) will deviate several grains. Bullet weights, diameters, jacket lengths are ever changing. A perfect chamber and barrel can absorb a lot of these tolerances in the ammo and still produce tight groups. In a production gun these things stack up and conspire against you. A lot of those issues can be eliminated if you want to go to extremes with your ammo. I guess I'm just too lazy to weigh bullets and turn necks. Even if I did all that I still would have to contend with the long throat this particular rifle was minted with. Good Luck. TLS Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

I've never shot benchrest until just this past weekend, but I have been shooting groups for load development for 40 years. I am a respectable handgun competitor having shot in USPSA since 2004. Could the problem be the loose nut behind the trigger? Sure it's possible. I have found over the years that my grip , breathing, eyesight, trigger control etc. is good enough to shoot 1/4 inch groups if the gun and load will support it. That's about the limit of my skill set. However, give me a 40x scope on a custom built BR gun with a 2 ounce trigger and I can do it all day. Anything is possible, but I can't think that the same sight picture, and technique that puts 4 in a ragged hole suddenly lapses into a 2 inch flyer unless something went terribly wrong with the gun or the load. TLS Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk