moverfive

This thread is a classic thread where everyone just needs to look at the rules from a 10,000 ft level on their initial review. It should be clear to everyone now that subset rules 5.7.7.1 and .2 only pertain to its primary rule - basically those two are the deciding points if a reshoot is warranted due to this very specific stoppage by the RO, and not to any other unrelated event. We just need to stop and look at the rule(s) and get an understand of WHAT is being said in them. That is why I said in my first post, this one isn't that difficult as the two subset rules obviously only relate to a squib, 5.7.7. Again, that should be clear to everyone after Gary's clarification. Just take this lesson, remember it, and apply it to the next situation - get an understanding of the rule (and its subsets if that is the case), the rule's intent, and then apply a common sense decision/ruling with that information. It isn't uncommon for folks to read way too much into some rules and/or take a too literal meaning of portions of the wording within a rule, out of context if you will......because they really did ask the question beforehand - WHAT is this rule actually saying.

.....for those that have shot the TN match in previous years, really need to picture a lot of trees and other 'stuff' for this stage to really look right on paper. :-)

Right, which is what we saw here. That is probably the tricky part. Maybe we can simplify this one a bit and boil it down. Lets just take the part where the shooter had a confirmed squib. No reshoot allowed. Score the run up to the point of the squib. Now, the score sheet on that first run is found to be incomplete. Is a reshoot warranted? My first thought was...yes, the shooter caught a break and gets a reshoot on his squib'd up run. But, as mentioned, there is that sticky part about not getting a reshoot for a squib. So, what does the book say (seems like a close look is in order). 9.7.5 If a score sheet is found to have insufficient or excess entries, or if the time has not been recorded on the score sheet, the competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire. 9.7.6 In the event that a reshoot is not possible or permissible for any reason, the following actions will prevail: It looks like the key phrase here is in the later part of 9.7.6 The reshoot is not permissible, since competitors don't get a reshoot due to a squib. Thoughts ? The disallowing of a reshoot due to an actual squib relates to the RO stopping the shooter, an external factor if you will. The end result isn't a whole lot different than if a competitor essentially stopping himself due to a broken gun, no reshoot allowed for a broken gun either. In this case, the competitor had broken ammo.....but because of potential safety issues, the RO stopped the shooter. And because the shooter was stopped for "external" reasons, a decision must then be made - does he warrant a reshoot for the reason the RO stopped them? That is the situation the two subset rules address in my opinion. Those two rules should not apply to any other, unrelated situation. Think of it in this scenario - the competitor has a blazing fast run and just before the last shot if fired....POOF! The RO stops the shooter and sure enough, bullet in the barrel - SCORE 'EM! Since this was the last shot, they will have one mike.....and let's assume that the shooter dropped 3 points on the remaining targets - thus dropping a total of 18 points on the stage. With a fast time, as we all know, you can still place quite high even with a mike. So now the shooter would have a good score to post despite having a squib and thus a mike. Now because someone forgot to record the time, this shooter will not get a score? I don't see how someone not recording the time and this shooter having a squib are related. The competitor is getting goofed for an unrelated event. That is why I say that if an unrelated event occurs that typically warrants a reshoot and has no relationship to the squib issue - I cannot see why the shooter would be denied an opportunity to post a score.

Hmmm... reading 5.7.7.1, it seems like it says just that ? I read it to say you don't get a reshoot on the basis that the RO stopped you for a potential safety issue that was ultimately confirmed. Here is my twist - I read 5.7.7.1 and .2 as subsets of 5.7.7 and not stand-alone rules. In other words, 5.7.7 is about where a RO stops the shooter for a potential safety issue and the rule continues to say that the competitor and gun needs to be brought to safe condition. In other words, when it doubt, STOP the shooter. Now because the RO stopped the shooter, and not shooter themselves, the shooter is now up for consideration to get a reshoot. Therefore, we a rule(s) to decide how to proceed after the RO has stopped the shooter for this particular reason. And that is where the two subset rules of 5.7.7 come into play. And in my opinion, these two rules only relate only to 5.7.7. I don't read the 5.7.7 series to say that a shooter will never, ever get a reshoot for any other reason.....just not allowed a reshoot due to being stopped by the RO for a potential safety issue that was confirmed. And so if a subsequent, unrelated event, occurs afterwards that would typically warrant a reshoot for this shooter, the shooter should get a reshoot.

I don't think this is that difficult - 5.7.7.1 is saying someone is not permitted a reshoot BECAUSE they were stopped by the RO for a potential safety issue that turned out to be true. The rule does not state that the shooter is NEVER permitted a reshoot under any other conditions that may supercede. So once it is determined that the shooter's stage is done, the stage is scored as is - just like ANY stage would be. The only difference here is that the shooter didn't actually engage all targets. No different than if a shooter's gun simply broke and was unable to complete the course of fire. And just like any stage - if a scoring error (or lack of scoring took place, like missing time) occurs that would typically warrant a reshoot, then this shooter would get a reshoot. I don't see a rule that says that a shooter with a squib is denied a reshoot for any other legitimate reason.

Same here - mobile versions (IPhone and Blackberry) are not working properly.

Lots of options is right. Including lots of options to run past steel targets... This stage will be fun to watch. To watch get shot????? I thought shooting it would be more fun.

Trust me - based on the planned layout of this one, you don't want to start in Area C......Area A is back a little bit and not even close to being even with C. But I will say, this stage should have a lot of options as to where you actually start shooting.

and don't forget THE unique stage to this range/match - the Woods Walk stage. Well, 'walk' is a misnomer, it is more like a run through natural terrain. :-) That stage will soon be published.

Ten stages again this year. Mostly all medium to long courses of fire. It's looking like 250+ rounds, but I'm still trying to make a decision about some stages. Problem is I want to use them all. Send them to me, I'll help you decide!!!! You only like standards, classifiers, and other weeny type of stages......

Unfortunately, 99.9999% of the folks in that 'second' line are going to walk away empty handed today..... ....the volume of orders for this phone was just beyond incredible and more than anybody predicted (and maybe better said, more than what the production scheduled allowed). In the past, most of the phones were being shipped directly from a location within the US, now some direct shipments to customers are coming straight from China. So I guess the good news there is - when you do get your IPhone, you will know that it hasn't been sitting around gathering dust in a warehouse. :-) For the financial types out there - to get an idea as to how big this new IPhone will probably be, wait until AT&T publishes Q3 financials.....not necessarily from revenue but from its cost. While the exact dollars relating to any single product (especially Apple) will never be publicized, I suspect that if you read between the lines as to what is in the financials and the comments from T, you will get an idea just how big the IPhone is.

False. Pre-orders arrive today. The folks standing in line are the folks who placed pre-orders.... Let me re-clarify then - if you want to buy an IPhone (and thus didn't pre-order one), you must wait until the 29th. We are not getting phones to sell until just before that date. This was a last second thing due to the volume of pre-orders we took. This message didn't get out very well as we are having stores report folks lining up to buy phones.

Folks can stand in line all they want today.....the stores won't have them until the 29th.

It is also going to depend on your shooting style. You will notice Max will spend more time shooting stationary than others....but then you watch Tilley and he is moving and shooting more. The better example for this was the recent episode of the Pro-Am on Shooting USA. Did anyone notice how Little Max didn't move so much, especially as compared to the others?

If isn't the over-travel screw.....then your trigger is probably hitting (well pushing) the middle leaf of your sear spring. By pushing it before the disconnector, you are allowing the disconnector to drop some and thus causing the issue. Take off your grip safety and pull the trigger......watch is happening to verify. If the sear spring is getting pushed first, you probably need to change the sear spring and/or rebend it (but rebending will probably just allow the problem to resurface)......but if feel you can, you may be able to relieve a little from the area of the trigger bow that is hitting the sear spring.

Mike you are preaching to the choir on this forum. While most folks, like me don't know you personally, everyone here knows your skill sets and abilities in this sport. For you to not hit a 100 yard target, we all know 'something' was right when you you take that many shots and still not hit the target. You don't have to defend yourself in that respect......it was just unfortunate that it was you holding the gun at that moment. And as everyone here has noted - after both the team competition and elimination competition, you handled yourself better and said all the right things better than most would have done. You don't have to defend yourself here. If anything, you probably elevated your reputation with this crowd.

Sounds like the show's producers have done their job quite well..... .....assuming that Mike's rifle had issues, then feedback from the spotter would have been useless. And adding to that, if Mike wasn't even hitting the particular target and/or hitting erratically, there isn't much a spotter can do for him. But yet the discussion centers around whose responsible for the loss - Mike and Andre? If we believe Mike, then neither guy is the correct answer. And the way the show was done - Mike was made out to be the "better" shooter but yet couldn't hit a target. Remember how they immediately showed where Mike was taking charge of the team then remember how Andre made the comment about how 'Mike was saying how good he was and thus he would shoot the longer target.' I am sure those sections and comments were shown for the purpose to get everyone talking.....and they obviously succeeded. But in reality, if we believe Mike, then neither guy did anything wrong. And then you have Kelly. Now that most have seen what this guy can do with long-range shooting, his skills are unquestionable in that area. However, until the end of the show, we really didn't know how good he is. So everything up until the last part of the show made him to look 'cocky' or even trying to show up Mike (with the smiley face and JJ's comments). The problem here is - everything in the first show was this guy's strength and expertise, so he was simply talking like an expert and one having true knowledge of long-range shooting. What he did, especially with the smiley face, is no different than Blake's infamous trick where he can shoot a plate rack without looking (which it appears we will see in the next episode). He was simply having fun and taking his skills to the next level. And given what Blake is going to show (and what JJ could probably similarly show), I don't think anyone that knows JJ or Blake would ever call them 'cocky' or 'showing someone up' if they are simply displaying their unique skills in a fun, practice environment. Bottom line - the producers have done their job quite well in setting the stage for viewers to take sides, argue, and choose their favorite shooter. And in my opinion, all of these discussions are for the wrong reason. If Mike's gun was 'broken,' then unfortunately for Mike it sucked to be him that day. And things for Mike went from bad to worse when he decided to shoot against one of the best long-range shooters in the world, thus making a tactically bad decision. End of story.

When I was there that was the nice thing about having one of our monthly matches on the marine base some years ago - we could test out big sticks there prior to shooting on the mainland. But regardless of how much or how little practice we had, we would still do the infamous Hawaiian reload......where you drop your big stick with 20+ rounds in it because, well, you are used to reloading like you were shooting single stack. And since I still see the same names as regulars, I am sure MPPL is still a fun and nice club to shoot.

The closest TN club to Sevierville will be Oak Ridge - but they shoot the 3rd Saturday of the month (19th of June)

Is Gavino's club still active there?

Exactly as you are insinuating - quality is always preferable. Maybe better said, having experienced folks, with current experience, is what is preferable....in both obtaining CRO status and actually working as a RO/CRO at a Level II or above. Meaning, I think RO's at major matches should be regular shooters (yes, there are a lot of RO's at major matches that don't shoot often), at least have shot a level II in the previous year. It doesn't happen often, but it happens often enough that it is seen - RO's will make "bad" calls that I feel could have been prevented if they had a little more experience. So I think having some experience requirements to obtain certain qualifications and to work major matches is a good thing. And if those requirements keep a lot of people 'out' - think about: they really aren't participating in our sport to begin with, so what have we really lost?

You don't hear about these incidents too often today......but prior to these REALLY good holsters we have today, I know of a couple of people that holstered their gun with the safety off and the gun got off a few rounds before they were able to the gun BACK out of the holster. In other words, the gun's weight was was pushing on their triggers and because the safeties were engage - no problem. But if they had clicked off the safety while the gun was in the holster - bang, bang.....or in one case - bang, bang, bang, bang.

Was all of that laughter at or with Teddy? :-)

Nope, I am now able to make it down there.....the only problem is - the last time I will have touched a gun will be at Area 6. :-) At least you had one to TOUCH (gun that is).....So with nothing to loose you gonna hang out and drink beer with me then???? all right.....if I must. I know how boring you can be when you drink. But for the sake of friendship, I will try to make an exception this one time.

....this is why local matches should be looked at as practice. There are a lot of things that are best suited to work on during individual practice, but there are also several things that really can only be worked on under match conditions. And this is for all the reasons stated above - you have people watching you, you only have "one" shot at that stage, someone is actually holding the timer behind you as opposed to being on your belt, and etc. You cannot duplicate those conditions by yourself. Local matches are where you experiment, take chances, see what you can and cannot do, and maybe better said - learn the areas where you are losing ground (whether it be time and/or points) against people you should be hanging with or even beating. Then based on where you are falling short - THAT will give you better focus on your individual practice. And then the cycle repeats itself. I see too many people looking at local matches too similar to real matches.....and the net result is they slow down their progress significantly. The analogy that I use is running: if you can only run a 10 minute mile today, you don't show up to a trophy race today trying to run an 8 minute mile - if you do, you probably won't finish the race running. However, if you only train at a 10 minute pace, you will probably never get to 8 minute mile.....and if you do, you will probably be a senior citizen when you do.