EaZeNuTZ33

I shot them all off the rock. Don't remember if falling off the cliff was a stage DQ, match DQ, or painful....may have been a combo.

Or off of a giant chunk of rock.

IN! please but a big IPSC sized gong at 600!!!

I'm suing Steoger! :-)

Thought of another one....... 11: Don't ALWAYS lean on a perceived strength. An option stage of shotgun/pistol on all targets, I went shotgun only knowing that missing only 1-2 shots would have locked my bolt back empty versus dumping the shotgun half way thru and finishing with pistol on 12-13 targets that were close with 24+1 in my pistol. I lost 5 seconds on a FAST stage at the ProAm.

If people hate shotguns they why would they want to participate in a game that is 1/3 shotgun? I enjoy all my guns equally, and would find 2 guns far less appealing than 3. There are palaces for those that don't like shotgun. USPSA or IDPA. I just hope that I can be forgiven for missing JJ and Denise's party this year and hope they will let me come back next year so I can be pelted with rotten fruit while shooting the epic all shotgun stage! I don't care how they do the prize table or even if they do it, I would go just to shoot the stages with my buddies and enjoy the Whitington center. If fact I would like to donate my trip to the table (how ever far down the list it is) to my favorite RO of the match (yet to be determined) to show who deserves sponsor swag. because prize tables are almost infinitely better.....they enjoy shooting their rifle....and many stages only require them to shoot 0-9 shotgun shells

I don't think anyone has the perfect solution yet.......but I see major holes in how you do prize tables. Now...with that said, I haven't been to your match and understand that it's a blast and one that I need to attend at least once (along with a few other "epic" matches). Prize table would not be the deciding factor for my first match out there, but I could see it being the reason TI / HI / HTO want to come back and why some TO shooters don't.

Alright, my year is just now ramping up to where I have a 3-gun match or two on almost EVERY single weekend until late November, so I thought I would share some subtle things I've learned in shooting and helping out with a major match this year that help me work on stuff for the rest of the year as a shooter, and for next year. 1: You can design stages that YOU think are fun, challenging, simple tests of skill.....but you will NEVER make everyone happy. After hearing complaints about designing stages that had elements of what I thought should be present at matches, I tend to keep some complaints about stage designs at other matches to myself unless constructive criticism is requested. <----about stage DESIGNS, if I see how something is being handled wrong....well I'll get to that. I will likely never volunteer to assist with a match beyond being an RO again, but appreciate the experience it provided, and appreciate the work others put into matches even more now. 2: Complaining about match admin publically will never be received well. Let it go and walk away! If there is someone you can talk to who has influence at a match or group of matches, privately bring it to their attention and rely upon them to work towards correcting things. I hate the "chain of command" concept of getting things resolved, but in a close niche group of shooters, it's probably best. If nothing changes about what you observed, you can avoid that match in the future....if things change, you come back and praise them for the changes they made. 3: Don't take things too seriously. Matches that I put my game face on, listened to FFDP on my way to the stages, and was dead serious about how I needed to do...well, I had issues that I overlooked. When I went out to have fun, joke around off the clock, and hang out with good people....I had more fun and placed better. 4: Body position makes a big difference. At one match, I missed like CRAZY with pistol, then watched the video to find that for some reason I had all my weight on my left foot and was barely on my right big toe. Another match/stage, I did the same thing with shotgun while standing straight up instead of leaning into the gun. 5: Skills degrade if neglected. Worked hard on pistol all winter and spring, and shotgun loading during lunches at the office, while taking rifle shooting for granted....wanna guess what let me down this year? 6: If you're going to try to help people....accept that some people will not like how you help others. I put out a youtube video with some tutorial on strong hand quad loading in the hopes it would help a few shooters speed things up....reception was great, but there are always some people who will have negative criticism that brings little to the table. 7: Bringing out a product will get you both praise as a genius, and opinions that what you invented is a useless add on tool. Also expect several people to request free product before you ever have product in hand. haha 8: Reaffirmation that the people in this sport....even if we disagree about LOTS of things....are still the best people around, and can be insanely generous! I watched 2-3 people GIVE prize table/raffle shotguns/rifles away to junior shooters this year. You guys rock. I've also seen a local shooter offer up his shotgun to a junior shooter at more than one maor match....and let her and her dad walk away with his match shotgun while he wasn't on their squad. 9:Match etiquette should be taught to all new shooters. Not just the RULES....but how things should be conducted and done when on the range. Things like resetting targets, whether or not it is acceptable to touch a paper or steel target that could be challenged, coaching a shooter on the clock,.... Unfortunately, some new shooters feel alienated when they do something that they do not realize was a party foul. 10: Warm up a little. I've noticed that I tend to do better when blood is flowing after windmilling the arms, some knee raises, and getting my body moving before a stage. When I walk onto a stage cold, I just don't move as well. This is a simple things to do. PLEASE: Not looking for popcorn gifs or people arguing and would ask that anyone who wants to argue about what someone has learned keep it between PMs, I want to hear what you have learned, because there is someone out there who is just getting started (like me mid 2012) and could really benefit from knowing a few subtle things before attending their next big match.

This was how we always shot steel AC zones and static steel in this part of the state, especially at the CMMG monthly matches we used to attend......personally, I'm not a fan either. There are enough people that can double tap steel fast enough that you cannot tell if it was one hit or two, and if you want two hits...put paper out there.

I'm leaning harder towards half day matches as well......but what I said rings true. If the match is awesome, I'm still gonna put it on the schedule if there's no conflict.

Prize tables are what draw a lot of USPSA shooters over to the dark side....even when they hate scatter guns.

Personally....I hate the concept of having to pay $100 for the arbitration process. In essence, it's a financial barrier to keep people from asking to verify that they are right. If the person was right, they gambled money to find out and should never have been put thru the process to begin with (in a perfect world)...if the person is wrong, they are still DQ'd from the match or stage, still lose that target, or still don't get that reshoot...therefore still beng punished without having to fork out $100 in additonal punishment. As for the sentence "the commission of the infraction may not be protested" Does this mean that someone cannot argue that they did not break 180, only argue that 181 degrees on that stage is safe? Arguing that an AD or ND that left the range is nearly impossible to argue IMO, but I could see someone arguing whether something was an AD or burning a round into a berm and whether it was past "x" feet from the shooter tho. If you cannot argue something was an AD, only that it was an AD into a safe direction, there's no point in arbitration at all.

A guy in my squad thought he saw another shooter load his shotgun and put it in the back of his truck for the next stage at a match, he went over to let the guy know he could get in trouble for it only to find out it wasn't loaded and the guy did everything right. If it would have been the RM or MD that thought they saw it, it could have been a "sorry, all DQs are final" because they can't reverse that DQ and refuse to reverse another if it's proved wrong or could possibly be wrong in the eyes of a committy of fellow shooters.

If you are worried about it as a stage designer, match director, or range master........make your stages start with the shooters hands on something and the rifle/shotgun staged flat on a table and pistol holstered.....I mean, how many staging tables could possibly be shot that way? Brian? I can't say much.....I've shot a table or two myself. All this commie talk about sissifying of mag capacities is communist. I personally have no issues with 170mm or longer mags being used in TacOps and Limited, with 140mm mags I usually don't change mags in 3-gun anyways. Same goes for rifle and when I shot with 30rd mags. If you're overly worried about it....outline EXACTLY what you want in the stage description. "Low Ready" could easily be replaced with "muzzle aimed at X on ground with long gun shouldered in ready to fire position." Of course....making me point at the X on the ground with the sights oriented up will only penalize me 1/4 second if I'm loading my shotgun off the buzzer anyways.

Couldn't disagree with this more personally. I watched a shooter get DQ'd for a 180 violation at a recent match when he clearly was NOT breaking 180.....after arguing it with the RM TWICE and bringing video evidence from a head mounted Go-Pro, the shooter was given a reshoot and DQ was reversed. If the RM was completely unwilling to budge when evidence was in front of him, because as you put it "RO DQs are final"... I would feel 100% justified in asking for arbitration. I agree with you on the RO interference. I would go even further and ask that scoring RO clear the guns in dump barrels behind the shooter unless there is a problem with it.

Max time regardless of penalties and timeout is 300 sec. Unless of course the general consensus is let the shooter eat all penalties on top of time out. Either way it won't affect the top 75% of shooters. Then a stage DQ is no penalty worse than a broken gun, or bad shooting...Just saying... Good point. 600 sec. More appropriate? If you're doing points per stage, I think that making a Did not Fire or DQ worth zero points is more appropriate. If total time with no points per stage, then 600 seconds would be a solid crash and burn...but then 300 should be the most you can get on a stage with a broken gun or what have you... Just depends on how you plan to score it. Total time is the main problem with having a stage DQ IMO......determining the right amount of pain necessary is purely subjective. If 300 is too little, 600 too much, 450 is just right? I do remember someone saying something along the lines of...there is no safe, unsafe, and slightly less unsafe/safe....it's either safe or not. For a game, I'm not sure I'm 100% in agreement since we can argue where the treshold from safe to unsafe lies in the game, or world in general. I could argue that a loaded/chambered gun that is vertically in a dump barrel with safety off is safe until someone screws with it.....after all, I have to click the safety OFF on my 2011 to rack the slide right? A range we shot at last year required ALL guns to be completely EMPTY to be abandoned, regardless of safety condition. They weren't in line with other matches and have changes their rules now, but the clubs opinion on a SAFE gun was a completely empty gun. Perhaps instead of giving a blanket stage DQ time for a certain action, access a time penalty of X number of seconds for what would be the stage DQ, and assess it to the shooter's stage time. Now you can assess a 100 (200? 300?) second penalty for the infraction, in addition to the 55.55 second stage they shot up to that point and 200 seconds in penalties they received for the targets remaining when they were stopped from continuing the course of fire. Just something that popped into my head.

Let's be honest here..........if the match is really good, you aren't going to abandon it because of the half day vs. all day format? I really enjoy half day format as a shooter, but haven't been on the side of the MD/RM when running it. My match schedule next year will be primarily based upon which matches impressed me this year, intrigued me, or I regretted not being able to shoot this year. It may be a 50/50 split on format next year.

I never said that someone coming in first due to DH or JC being DQ'd, doesn't deserve to win their division......I said it skews the results for the price table greatly. If James DQ's, everyone in Limited just got a 15-20% bump and their prize value increases dramatically. If DH DQ's, there is a chance that everyone in TO bumps up a good amount, but because so many good shooters shoot TO, someone like Jordan, Laker, Garcia,....is right there around 90-98% of Horner, so it's less likely everyone gets bumped up. IMO....if you are shooting limited, you CAN compare to TacOps and Open. If you are shooting TacOps, you CAN coare to Open. You can always compare UP to a less restrictive division using the same calibers and equipment. We have all seen Horner win Open running his TacOps gear at a major match.....they didn't tell him no because he didn't have a red dot on his pistol and XRail on his shotgun! For Instance: I shot Limited at Generation III Gun and came in 3rd behind James at 77.16%. I did the math on this earlier today and I believe my scores in limited, when moved to TacOps would have taken 16-17th and put me around 78.79%. Assuming I would have had magnification on the 350yd targets, I assume I would have finished higher, but for now....lets leave it where it is. I would have potentially bumped up 1-5 spots at the prize table with more than 1.5% higher finish. If I watched scores closely and bumped myself to open on accident (purpose) by starting with 10-11 rounds in my shotgun on one stage....I finish at 97.34% of the Open winner with my Limited gear....essentially bumping myself up the prize table substantially. Based on walking the prize table based on percentage, getting bumped to Open, I would have walked the prize table after 3rd place in TacOps and taken a real nice Black Rain Ordinance rifle home instead of a certificate for an FNH pistol. I will not compare my scores to heavy optics because I cannot say that my limited rifle is an advantage or disadvantage to my heavy ops rifle comparing capacity, recoil, addition of magnification. I understand the thought process, like I said before, but when reality is introduced it can't hold water as Mark put it. As for distribution....YES, take into account the total value of prizes for the match and compare it to the number of shooter per division. You may NOT have a gun on every table, or you may only have one lower value gun on the table. Drop the value of prizes incrementally based upon the number of shooters. If there are 5 shooters in one division and 50 in another, the 5th and 50th should have the same value ......math for 5th of 5 at 20% value is easy math, as is 50th of 50th at 20%......4th and 40th would be 40%......3rd and 30th would be 60%.....2nd and 20th would be 80%. Now, here's the problem with doing prizes this way. If you shoot all divisions equally well, you will tend to lean towards TacOps where more "cannon fodder" resides and allows you to be in the top 10% of shooters while coming into a lower finish position. If I was only concerned about prizes and I were visiting your match Denise and JJ, I would be more likely to shoot a division OTHER than TacOps, and would move out of Limited if I found out James was shooting your match. My chances of winning a division or placing with a higher percentage of the division winner, in let's say Heavy Optics, would be better IMO.....because 3rd- 5th place at 80-85% in HTO will have me walking the prize table better than 70-75% at 20th in TacOps, or 70-80% in limited at 3rd-10th. Now I am gaming what division to shoot based on the prize table, just like I would by shooting TacOps at a match with separate prize tables.

15 shooter squads at 70mins per stage gives you less then 5 minutes shooter turn around times... I hope the stages are not too long. or that Stage reset isn't going to be an issue. Acctually even less as I didn't even consider stage walk through + stage brief. Also is the Staff + RO's switching out Mid day, or are they staying for the full day? A downhill stage design should allow clearing of firearms and resetting/pasting targets as the shooter progresses down the COF.....which would really help.

Only way for that to happen is to limit how many people can shoot in that one division. AND THAT WILL GO OVER WELL! Ya....not gonna go over well. Only other way to make something like that happen would be to standardize prizes evenly among divisions to where the 1st, 2nd, 3rd,...place shooters in each division receive the same prize and the high overall shooter gets an additional prize. Several people would break out that gun they haven't shot in awhile for a shot at 3rd or 4th in HI compared to taking 35th in TacOps like usual. Other problem that arises..... .30 cal rifle pills/powder and .45 pistol pills are noticeably more expensive than .224 rifle pills and 9mm pistol pills. If shooting factory ammo, the problem gets even worse! I don't personally care for a prize table where I walk based upon the percentage of the top person in my division, although I used to think it was a great idea. The best example I can give would be that 30 people are in TacIrons, 150 people are in TacOps......James Casanova loses his shotgun at a dump barrel and DQ's. If he hadn't of DQ'd, I would have finished 75-80% of his time and I probably would have finished the same 75-80% of let's say Chris Anderson in TacOps.....BUT since James DQ'd, I'm now 96-99% of Brian Vaught's score and I walk the prize table ahead of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th place in TacOps and walk away with a $2500 rifle compared to the $700 pistol I would have taken in my division.....that is probably comparable to the $600-900 prize taken around 15th-20th in TacOps. Knowing how this could work, I may break out my .308 and push to win Heavy Optics to try to get a top prize in an underserved division that is too expensive for some other shooters to even attempt. If I do that, I may shoot against 5 other people and walk away with the same prize Chris and James would.....yet, I'm not that caliber of shooter yet. I get the perspective you are coming from and understand the "why".....but after being in this for a couple years, I hate one thing more than anything...getting something I didn't earn, whether that's good or bad. I hate random draw prize tables for the same reason.

Alright.....I'm not gonna make any friends here: 1: Three Divisions (with concessions). A:Tactial/TacOps. Traditional Tacops division, with one shot on paper for 45 and 308 and no mag cap limits. B:Limited. Exactly like TacOps division, same concessions. C:Cheater Division. Open with same concessions. Heavy Divisions are entirely under shot and forgotten divisions for multiple reasons. (Here comes the storm of hate.....) <---I like shooting HTO, but wont this year or likely next year. 2: 30 sec penalty for abandoning a 1911/2011 with a working grip safety. Non-working/pinned grip safety, stage DQ. Dropped loaded gun, match DQ. Offer option to leave chamber empty to competitors if they like....dropped gun with empty chamber = stage DQ if other rules are not broken....ie, 180 rule. 3: 180/ND/AD/unsportsmanlike/cheating/bullet leaving range.....match DQ 4: Half Day format. 5: Time-Plus scoring....added penalty time for pistol/slug targets over 40 yards, rifle targets over 200 yards, and specialty targets. 6: 100 pt stages...all stage times for a good shooter (not necessarily a top 10 finisher) need to be within 10-15 seconds of their average stage time in order for it to work well. This needs to be based on a Tac shooter, not an open shooter who doesnt have to reload shotgun. 7: Only vertical dump barrels that are secured and cannot tip over and horizontal tables / slanted barrels for staging. Paint the rims of all dump barrels with bright colored paint. No confusion with abandoning a firearm in the wrong place. ANY dump barrel can be used for ANY gun in a COF (would need dump buckets for pistols in them all), once abandoned it can't be retrieved, no abandoning two guns in one barrel. Have more than enough dump barrels on each stage to have options as to how far you want to go before dumping a gun. 8: Downhill stage designs when possible...scoring RO confirms safe abandonment and clears guns muzzle down in barrels, scoring behind the shooter. Leave any FTN paper or steel alone / untouched for the shooter to see on their way back, everything else should be reset and pasted when the shooter is walking back to pick up cleared firearms. 9: Loaded gun starts. Exceptions would include prone/rooftop with holstered pistol, a specific challenge of starting with a completely empty gun that needs to be loaded on the clock, or the shooter exercising the option of starting with an empty chamber. Cruiser ready makes little sense to me.......I would either have a loaded gun I'm going to pick up and shoot, or an unloaded gun that I need to insert a mag or load a tube and then shoot. My CCW, home defense guns,....all are loaded and hot. The shotguns, rifles, and pistols in my safe all have empty chambers, no mags, and empty shotgun tubes. 10: Paint all targets fresh for each squad, or start grey and never paint. I personally would talk to limited shooters like James Casanova as to the best methods for painting targets/stands to make them workable for every shooter. Backers for targets would be great to help with visibility, white corrugated plastic behind black targets would work well as long as it is angled to minimize dirt sticking on it. Orange/White paint on the ground like 3GN uses to show how the target should be squared is an excellent idea!

Better to look at Mossberg's in reference to "trade-in" value.

I'm gonna catch crap for saying so........but I'm with Jesse on this one. The 3 day half day format looks perfect to me for a 10 stage match. I personally would opt to check out vendors, side matches, and hang out with shooters for lunch/dinner after shooting each half day. ProAm vs. Regional....same location 1 week apart. I spent a lot of time hanging out with friends at the regional and spent a lot of time hanging out at stages at the ProAm. Both matches were fun, but the Regional was easier to justify for next year if they are back to back again.

gamer

You can get the same experience...and have half the day to visit vendor booths, shake hands with competitors, visit side matches......or I guess go sight seeing. Advantage of half day over one on/one off format is that you can hang out and get to meet shooters from squads other than yours and the squads in front of and behind you. At the 3GN Regional at Rockcastle, I was able to meet more shooters than most any other match I had previously attended, and even though I didn't shoot well the first day, I really enjoyed meeting everyone.