Racinready300ex

I think to imply including completely change the equipment rules wouldn't change anything is disingenuous too.

I've certainly never talked to anyone who was afraid of the DA first shot on a DA/SA gun.

I center punched a popper once with major and it didn't fall. I wouldn't 100% count on every steel you encounter being perfectly calibrated.

Why answer your question? You can deny reality so what will anything I say matter? You can't imagine a world where there are shooters so good that companies will pay them to win just to sell product. If a s#!t shooter gets 1 more alpha because of a better gun the standings have changed but you can't even see that as a possibility because you want to shoot a SAO gun that bad.

So, you have indicated before SA benefits some shooters. Yet you don't see how that can effect the standings? Did you know marginal shooters are also included in the standings? In fact the vast majority of shooters at a match are marginal shooters. I'm thinking about how this effect them, not how it effects Nils. I personally don't care at all what guys who are paid to shoot certain guns do.

To be fair, this thread is solely focused on the shooting part not any of that other stuff. I don't think anyone thinks a 2011 will make them a better stage planner. But they might think it'll keep them from pushing those random low left shots. And typically a heavy soft shooting gun with a light trigger can help mitigate crappy fundamentals. And like moto pointed out most of the broken open guns wouldn't break if they would sacrifice a ounce of performance for reliability. Why don't they? Would a little heavier slide really effect their match performance? Apparently gun builders think we want maximum performance at all costs. Why will CO be different?

I think CO as it is probably does this the best based on average gun owners I run into. as I mentioned earlier I see 50 students a week. I might see one optic and a couple SAO guns per class. Rarely do I see a SAO hi-cap gun let alone one with a optic. A better division to attract average joes would be like CO but with out the optic. I think the goal must be something else. It's fine for the goal to just be "I like this better" or "this way makes more sense" but we always try to say it'll attract people when really most people don't want to compete and the rules don't matter they'll just come up with another excuse.

I kind of forgot about that, how CO had a 35 oz limit to start and that kind of came out of left field. People joked it was because Sig had just released the 320 and Phil was President. Then we bumped the weight limit to 45 oz and the guns people used suddenly started to shift and money was spent. Then we bumped it to 59 oz. and now some of that money just spend on slide lightening was now wasted money. Changing the rules like this and slowly loosing restrictions might be the best way to boost gun sales to the membership. Buy the best gun you can, until the rules allow something even just 1% better. It would be interesting to know all the things considered in making those decisions. One could easily put together a conspiracy theory that it was 35 to benefit plastic guns. Then bumped to 45 around when the 43 oz legion came out but still just shy of shadow 2 numbers. Then maybe to throw CZ a bone bump the number to 59 after the A01 comes out. Not saying this is what happened it's just funny how it worked out. In the end the members are the ones who loose out as they're constantly spending money. We can all say the equipment doesn't matter but that doesn't stop Johnny C class from wasting his money every time we change the rules. Hell even I know better but if they change the rules to allow a gun I like better I'll switch to it. 100% I'm jumping to 2011's in CO when this happens because I've just always liked them and have several.

Moto does like to call people whiners and wusses. Or some variation of that.

I don't think anyone really wants to add major to existing CO. I think the point the supports make is that you can still use your cheap plastic gun and do just as well as if you had a 10k dollar gun so the cost is really unchanged unless you really don't like your money.

I do not, are you saying it didn't happen? I think I said the exact opposite of that. Sell what you want more power to you. I don't think you should come up with a product then try to force it on us. If it's really great it'll happen on it's own. Once we make the change if it's not organic it'll be to late. We'll of already broken the most popular division in the sport. Surely he is not, I didn't know you wanted me to search all of the internet to find everyone who agrees with him. Maybe if the org was interested they'd pole the membership to see what we wanted. But, he is a representative of the company and publicly being vocal about the change and the reason for the change. Which is I thought what you were asking for. Clearly SAO is not a thing yet so I can't point to it as a change can I?

I'm not sure if saying you like something as it is really counts as whining.

They mentioned it at one of the in person meetings. Some thing to the effect of "talking with manufactures about divisions" Clearly infinity was vary vocal online about wanting this division, so has Akai. That "no talent" guy who shoots for Atlas has said on his podcast open PF should be lowered so he wont break so many parts. Other Atlas shooters come to mind who have been lobbying for SAO in CO for a while. So clearly these guys want this. So it's reading between the lines a little. Maybe it's not happening, but since the BOD keeps things so close to the the chest it leads to speculation like this.

I don't think anyone is mad that companies want to sell SAO guns. I certainly don't care. It think it does bug people when those companies are lobbying behind closed doors to change the sport. We are members, not customers we should have a say in what we want our sport to be. We should be asking the membership what they want, we should come before sponsors, but I don't think we do. It's funny how so many uspsa shooters joke that IDPA changes their rules based on Wilson Combats new products. But USPSA clearly does the same thing. I wonder if Sig were to send Jake that new SAO gun and a pallet of ammo would it speed this whole process of getting a new division along a bit.

100% me being selfish, I'd rather it stay minor only. I don't really want to shoot major end of story. I may still shoot it in minor but it's tough to travel to big matches knowing you're leaving so much on the table. If I go back to just doing club matches it wouldn't matter.

What's more equal than a yeet cannon division. Plus low cost of entry, maybe we can make it a team even and we'll call the teams gangs instead. Some day it can spin off into it's over sport like cowboy action. You'll have a street name and.... well you get the idea.

The division would probably be fun. But, I like shooting, so basically any combination of things could be fun. I think a Yeet cannon division would be fun. We just need to figure out what should qualify as a division. Fun, might not be good enough of a reason.

I know at least on social media optics are the big thing. But, I work for a company doing CCW classes. I see 50 students a week. I see as many revolvers as I do optics. That's probably a exaggeration, I see at least one revolver in every class but I don't see dot's in every class. These are just average gun owners. It's certainly a growing market, but to me it seems like a small part of the overall. Now it's vary possible that the people we want to attract are the guys with optics because they may be more in to this stuff.

Following the progession, we've now gone from SAO to SAO+magwell to SAO+magwell+comps/ports. We could just make open minor a thing too.

I'm not sure. Production with 140's would be a division with the same gun but you don't need a $500 optic that's going to break after 10k rounds. But, now that so many people are invested they probably wouldn't go back. Had we bumped prod and CO to 140's at the same time I bet the field would look vary different today. At a minimum I bet you could switch limited and productions numbers. Hell, doing it today would drastically impact Limited as all the A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want shooters at level 1's would jump ship to Prod.

I hear some open shooters complain about breaking stuff and wanting major power factor lowered. This would be a division they can shoot essentially the same gun and it'll probably never break. They'll just need spare optics instead of slides. The only reason to stay in Open will be if you're really attached to major scoring.

This is already happening. If you want competition CO is really the only option. There a a lot of local level matches where 90% of the shooters will be in CO and the remaining is split between the other 7 divisions. That makes it pretty likely you'll be the only person in your class in any division but CO. Majors, there will be more GM's in CO than shooters in L10, Revo and maybe SS combined.

I think you're right. Now Limited and open should probably look out. I could see them slipping down to production levels in a few years time.

There must be. See all posts about changing a division to improve turn out in said division. You got my point, we're on the same page. I just worded it from a different angle.

Then it should be Optics Nationals, Irons Nationals and popular nationals. Popular nationals currently would be CO, in a few years it might be Lim-Op and CO gets bumped down to optics nationals. If no division stands out then only two nationals. Every Nat's looses money, the org is running a deficit and wants to raise dues. Nationals isn't the only reason, but we can't keep holding this many nationals and expect the 32,000 members to pay higher dues so 300 members can go shoot nationals multiple times a year. I think Hopkins said something like 1k or 1.1k unique members shoot nationals. So if we had 5 or 6 Nationals there are a lot of people shooting more than one. And I think we have 33k members. That's how I came up with those numbers. 300 is just a wild guess.