RadarTech

We had a similar issue at the 2018 area 8 match. A junior shooting PCC and a short wall, with the fault lines away from the wall- She had to hold the PCC over her head to be able to aim at the targets. Due to a pasting confusion issue- she got a reshoot and then a concrete block was added for a platform. Since she was unable to see the targets at all this was deemed to not provide competitive equity as she could not even see the target. 2.3.4, 2.3.7 and 4.6.1 are the only rules that mention competitive equity in the rule book. Under 2.3.1 a course may be modified for ANY reason and changes published from that point forward. See 2.3.2 Note 2.3.3.1 in this change. One might try to argue that 4.6.1 a barrier failed as a competitor could not see the targets. Next— in the case of a PCC held over a juniors head shooting at a low target behind a wall— well that to me is an unsafe target presentation—- when you consider ricochets.... But in the end— I would tell you to call the RM, ask for the “step”. He or she will likely have seen this before. But hopefully that will be considered in the RMs final walk through... I have required port openings be dropped lower, fault lines be moved, and other things. IMHO, if you are doing something to punish that tall shooter or help that short shooter it does not make it reasonable to expect a short shooter to be able to shoot a target if they are not able to see the target... and those prone targets? Is it a shooting challenge to jump up and run after shooting it? It would be better to Plan your prone positions in a way where someone can end there... Just my nickel worth...

Here is what I would recommend to all that have an issue with major match fees versus local matches— When you shoot a major and see an RO you know— ask them — how much does it cost you over what the match covers does it cost you to come and work this match? At a local— you don’t have this issue.. no one is paying more than anyone else to shoot... typically no hotels.. no meals .. etc... So the expenses don’t make it truly comparable.

I see some valid points here I’d like to see discussed: 1. Should staff at a major pay more than a competitor to “volunteer” to work the match? 2. Do you have an acceptable loss amount for a staff member to work a match? $200? $300? I feel the days of lunch, a match fee, shirt and free brass succeeding in attracting good staff as over or pretty close to it for many matches.. I know a few places where anything but a roach motel will cost $200 plus a night. Even spitting a room would still be high for a 3 day match... 3. I’ve worked many majors, and seen MDs come out of pocket to hold the match- even losing money in some cases— what would you accept as an acceptable amount of profit for the MD? A per shooter $(like most matches pay a range)? Or a percentage of the match income? In the end, no one is making a fortune running matches, many hope to just break even or make a couple grand.. if you own the range and are running the match that changes some. Most matches pay the range $10-15 per shooter and then often cover a prop fee on top of that. So a 200 shooter match might pay $3k for the shooters and another $2 or $3k for props... if you are charging $150 for a match and NOT using credit cards- $30k - $6k (range fee) - ~$600 for USPSA activity fee. -$2k for Targets pasters and paint and target sticks $22k left for the following Water and ice, portajohns, staff lunches, staff hotel? Or stipend, golf cart(s) and expenses thereof, prize table-(not all prizes are given free- some are buy 2 get 1 free, some are at high discount- IE Guns) Chronos? Extra timers,tables, and damage replacement, shirts for staff- cotton? Maybe $1000, techwear? Maybe $3k or more... shirt for competitor? Some things like a meal vendor require a guaranteed amount of revenue to come— say $2500.. if staff lunches don’t cover that, the match makes up the difference. Some prices are low— so that $22k drops to less than $5k quick.. Anyway. All this to say a high match fee may just reflect the costs of the area... or at least part of it.. And those costs may be part and parcel of getting staff... remember those hotel rates? I’m not defending— just -an attempt at explaining...

Yes.... I RM 2 or 3 a year... and it pretty much means a week off per match between travel and time at the range.. As someone who is not retired, there are limits to the amount of time you can use to RM a match... Say it is a Thursday to Sunday match... you would have to travel to be there Tuesday night for stage approval.. and then leave Sunday night or Monday... Friday to Sunday— travel Wednesday and the. Leave Sunday or Monday.. part depends on how far you have to travel And sometimes you need to be there earlier than 1 day ahead depending on the staff at the match... I think the match fees will continue to go up... and I think there will be challenges as we have “retirements” of long time staff. As for RMs- (not counting RMI) I think I was the youngest until this last group just got approved... Mark is in his 30s. And I think one of the RMIs is in their upper 30s.. I’m closing in on 50... man I now feel old.... well maybe not... thanks folks!

One specific thing to mention... The gist of the conversation I had with Troy summarized: if a requirement of the stage requires or it incentivizes you to shoot better one handed it is against the rules. This part is mine: So while a great shooter can handle his/her PCC ONE HANDED and can shoot safely without issue that does not address the majority of other shooters.. I consider that new shooter that is shooting his first match or his first major or her first or a junior without the experience shown in this thread— who takes the hit if a round goes over the berm or creates holes in someone? Yea that is on the shooter, but what will the public see? Who will catch fault? The sport? The MD? The RM? The stage designer? Our rules put that squarely on the range master of the event... IMHO- we are debating a safety rule in this thread from the perspective of super man shooter #1– or maybe someone who has a great deal of experience.. I can do it, so no one should have a problem with it... that is great, I’m glad for you! But the RM has to consider all the others at the match for everyone’s safety.... In the end- if you break out any match- 70% or higher will be those C and D shooters... and we have to make sure the stages are safe for all.... Continuing the thought of not changing the stages—- Tell me the last time we saw an obstacle with a support that you had to climb as covered by 2.2.2... you know a 4 foot knee wall or ramp steep enough you need to grab a rope to go over it? With all the older, and less skilled shooters- who would do this now? The sport has changed a lot since it started. I can point to stories where a Cooper tunnel was 3 ft high or lower inside it... and some older shooters have laughed at todays cooper tunnels... I just know one thing— in the end if I’m running the match I know safety is of the primary importance.. then following the rules, then making sure it is fun! If we can’t be safe, it doesn’t matter if the rules are not followed... and if we are not safe, and using legal stages, will anything else even matter ? Would that even follow the premise of the sport? I’m sure there are those that will disagree with me... and that’s fine— I hope to see ya on the range and we can debate it sometime while watching shooters do crazy things no one intended... —-range is clear—-

I’ve flown in and out of there 3 or 4 times to work at the range. Honestly it isn’t bad a bad flight... I’ve flown thru Phoenix and a couple other places to connect into there.. A few pointers— The rental car counters close BEFORE THE LAST FLIGHT LANDS! make sure you plan accordingly! There are only 2 luggage carousels- and they are right next to the rental cars— so choose wisely and go straight to the car counter first! There is next to no food in the airport.. eat before you arrive for your departing flight. TSA PRE-check!! If you have time to registrar and get it— it can save you.. I have seen lines last 45 min when the airport has 2-3 planes leaving. Going to the range— it is straight up the interstate... exit 45.. literally you can be from the airport to the range in less than 20 min. Once you pass I think it is exit 38 there are no food stops or anything but a road side stand to get anything to eat or drink... be prepared for that! The range— I dropped in a construction image from the butte above... all the bays on the right is where you will be shooting... 13 bays and they are Big! Every bay has a shelter and metal bleachers. In each shelter are enough tables for 16 plus competitors! Plus an AC outlet! There is guest internet on the entire range. It works well— I actually installed it, so I’m kinda partial... The range manager is a guy named Walt.. he is a great person to know! There are 2 huge picnic shelters... power outlets are aplenty there! Plenty of tables too.. This picture is from construction inside a picnic shelter... Food in town— lots of good places.... But anyway— enjoy your match... and if you see Walt- tell him Jim said hello.

I’ve flown in and out of there 3 or 4 times to work at the range. Honestly it isn’t bad a bad flight... I’ve flown thru Phoenix and a couple other places to connect into there.. A few pointers— The rental car counters close BEFORE THE LAST FLIGHT LANDS! make sure you plan accordingly! There are only 2 luggage carousels- and they are right next to the rental cars— so choose wisely and go straight to the car counter first! There is next to no food in the airport.. eat before you arrive for your departing flight. TSA PRE-check!! If you have time to registrar and get it— it can save you.. I have seen lines last 45 min when the airport has 2-3 planes leaving. Going to the range— it is straight up the interstate... exit 45.. literally you can be from the airport to the range in less than 20 min. Once you pass I think it is exit 38 there are no food stops or anything but a road side stand to get anything to eat or drink... be prepared for that! The range— I dropped in a construction image from the butte above... all the bays on the right is where you will be shooting... 13 bays and they are Big! Every bay has a shelter and metal bleachers. In each shelter are enough tables for 16 plus competitors! Plus an AC outlet! There is guest internet on the entire range. It works well— I actually installed it, so I’m kinda partial... The range manager is a guy named Walt.. he is a great person to know! There are 2 huge picnic shelters... power outlets are aplenty there! Plenty of tables too.. This picture is from construction inside a picnic shelter... Food in town— lots of good places.... But anyway— enjoy your match... and if you see Walt- tell him Jim said hello.

It was said here— The stage should be safe for all.. Most of us should have no problem doing a PCC one handed... but that doesn’t account for the juniors, or the really petite ladies or a petite junior lady... And we all know it only takes that one that thought they could do it and someone get injured and who is them to blame? Ladies are said to be the fastest growing segment of our sport... You can tell us all how easy it is, and how you can do it. But that goes right back to the same position.. “If I can do it, and you can’t sorry- not my problem either shoot it or don’t come to the match”. This goes back to another position... if a match is so difficult to shoot, or it isn’t fun, then how many will show up to shoot it? And following that how many will you need to cover the expenses of the event? In the end — agree or not— matches are an entertainment industry... if you want to make it hard or require stuff that isn’t fun- you lose attendance. At some point that loss will mean the match is no longer there...

The reasoning that was explained to be about one handed is not everyone can safely fire one handed and by using a one size fits all Force them to do it- puts the liability on the match by requiring a potentially unsafe act.. Kinda like the same logic as every stage at the match should be GM level hard and the phrase “make a GM cry Difficulty”. We should endeavor to make it for all heights and shapes and skill levels. Forcing a prone position creates a problem for those that can’t get down.... I’ve had requests from competitors for a disability penalty for that issue at an area match....

We discussed this extensively for Area 8 last year as staff and with Troy. My opinion then and reinforced by Troy is that the stage procedure includes prop manipulation that forces someone to shoot one handed. An example or 2 of legal- Ammo can must be transported from start to finish. An example or more of illegal— Ammo can must be held or carried at all times except to clear jabs from start to finish and may not placed on the ground or other object except to clear jams. A Rhodesian wall where one must hold the rope to see around the wall to be able to shoot the targets. A port opening lever that must be held to keep a port open in order to engage targets only seen from that port. In these examples of illegal presentation it is required by the stage procedure or means to shoot the stage to use a hand to hold, manipulate or do something OTHER than hold the PCC. NOW— IF you give them ability to shoot both hands , but don’t require them to shoot 1 handed — that is fully legal... IE— position A is a hard lean that would be better done by grabbing a wall and leaning out but that target or array is available from Position B without said lean... or that array COULD be shot there with both hands... that would be legal but somewhat questionable— if that makes the stage difficulty unreasonably difficult for different heights and sizes of competitors. (1.1.6)

At Area 8 this past year we covered that under RM guidance.. if it is in a cart and being retrieved from a cart or buggy for a competitor to start the course of fire in an area where the car or buggy can't be within 6 feet of the berm or backstop we used the line at the end of the 10.5.19 The berm/backstop is not required while removing/returning a properly flagged PCC from/to a vehicle providing all other safety rules are followed. Vehicle - interpreted as a car, golf cart, or buggy. The previous sentence also says All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer. notice the OR..

While the RO may need some training, I would recommend this course of action: 1. Know the rules yourself 2. Have the rule book or electronic version handy 3. Show the applicable rule to the RO and educate him/her. In this case the rules for USPSA competitions (NOT SCSA or multigun ) are on page 29 of the rules book and this COULD be problematic.. as it is written I am unsure if he uncased BEFORE make ready or if he walked up and unzipped before the RO was there. If it was before the RO was there, technically it is a DQ if he was not within 2 yards of the backstop or sideberm and following all the other elements of 5.2.1.7. Did the RO give make ready BEFORE he unzipped it? NOTE the definition of CASED as covered in 5.2.1.8: To be considered cased, the PCC must be in a case or sleeve which covers from the muzzle past the trigger guard and prevents access to or manipulation of the trigger. In this example- I believe he actually UNCASED it per 5.2.1.8 as it was all the way down. UNCASING is where the DQ is called in this situation. So if he didn't wait for the make ready and just walked up to the start area and laid it down and unzipped and was not withing 2 yards of the backstop/sideberm.-- rule 5.2.1.7 applies with a DQ of 10.5.19 This situation says it was pointing downrange at the backstop, but did not give a distance. that is important. THE RULE in question: 5.2.1.7 Carbines must be cased/uncased or removed/replaced on a cart with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction directly into and within 2 yards of a side berm or backstop. PCCs can also be cased/uncased or removed/replaced on a cart under the direct supervision of a range officer with muzzle pointing at the backstop. Failure to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing/uncasing or removing/replacing on a cart will result in a DQ per 10.5.19. See below As another commented, ask him to show the rule.. This is a rather technical DQ situation.. was he truly in a DQ situation? I am not sure.... what I AM SURE OF-- if he does that at a level 2 or higher- his chances of getting a warning and NOT a DQ is slim... That lesson needs to be learned.... 10.5.19 Failing to point the muzzle of a PCC at a side berm or back stop during casing/uncasing or removing/replacing on a conveyance or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing or removing from/placing on conveyances only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer. The berm/backstop is not required while removing/returning a properly flagged PCC from/to a vehicle providing all other safety rules are followed.

I would recommend sending this to DNROI@uspsa.org Troy will provide answers and have corrections made to the course as needed.

I’m not real keen on the android.. to me at that price I’d just buy an iPad with extra batteries and Shades.. Additionally—There are beta updates to the iOS versions with bug fixes faster than android. The IOS developer is far more open to change and not combative/argumentative when you ask for something. I’ve been at a level 2 and level 3 match and found a bug and had a release sent to my stats folks that night on IPAD.. years later I see the feature we asked for still isn’t on the android with nothing but excuses and deflections. In the end, I always have a tablet of both kinds at a match. But I’m not sold on android for anything at this point...

This is counter intuitive. Food vendors require a minimum.. Say $1800 minimum ... and ask for say $8 per person. If you have 50 staff for 3 days that’s $1200. To even get a food vendor for staff it is often - the match will have to guarantee that $1800 and if the vendor doesn’t make it via sales and our staff paid meals, the match will have to cover the difference. These numbers vary by range, area, time of year and nearby festival activity... and actually I think $8 is kinda low.... Some matches include this in the match fee so there isn’t wasted $$. Ok so we had X competitors and only 75 ate the meal... but it was a bonus on the staff... I know most that have shot in Area 8 have seen southern Bobbi Q... it’s good food... and every match I’ve seen him at the match paid for all competitors to eat as part of the match fee...

I feel the need to comment on the topic of no lunch.... Many times the staff is out of the hotel before breakfast is opened and they need a lunch break for several reasons. This is where they can catchup if there is a morning problem without impacting afternoon scheduling. Mostly this is for half day format matches. But in the split formats where you may shoot 2 half day segments instead of a full day this is still needed. Lunch is also where staff can reset, repair, replace broken stuff without impacting shooters and making them wait and/or backing up the match. Or paint those extra targets that we didn’t think would be needed.. this list is endless... consider this an operational pause for those military minded folks... I can see the responses will be “I don’t need a lunch break”. But the unspoken part is also “if I don’t need it no one needs it” In this sport I have seen a number of people on insulin and special diets, how would you handle someone “taking a shot” in the tent on the side of a bay? Cause it will happen if there is no lunch break.. Additionally I’m worried about working the staff too hard, which is the worry we all should have... no staff=no match.. or the good staff goes away... and then you have more problems. I’ve worked matches where you got 10 min to eat a lunch and no break and the next squad was all over you wanting to shoot as you rush to replace targets. I haven’t worked for one of those MDs anymore. For shooters the no lunch part is one day.. for staff that could be 2 or 3 days... I get it , people want to be off the range and to The hotel or home.. but when we do this at the expense of volunteer staff, it is like cutting your nose off to spite your face... This is a tough one, you want to make shooters happy, but you can’t wear out your staff and expect to have a match the next year... In the end, this is an MDs call with how he/she does the schedule and the ROs call whether they will come back and volunteer again.. or decide to drop out at the last minute. as most matches are saying they are having a hard time to get staff, I would be hesitant to add “we won’t do a lunch break for this match, eat as you break between squads and stages and we hope it is ok so you can get off the range 30 min early” Sorry— my soapbox is now yielded.

This reminds me of a match a few years back where all the top winners got gun choices off a prize table.. And this was known before the match... as they walked past the “table” there was someone there with a pile of cash buying every single gun they “won”. Those top winners didn’t want or need those guns... they wanted some cash... The top shooters have little need for any of the good prizes on an order of finish prize table. They can either get it from their sponsor, buy it or they already have it. So I agree with the giving the Prizes out randomly.. that is the best chance of putting the item in the hands of “user” which is what marketing is for.. Honest question—. If you are trying to grow your market share in a business which if the following would you do? 1. Give merchandise to someone who will blog about it, or advertise its usefulness. 2. Give it to someone who will Take it and sell it and not further your marketing goals? 3. Not provide to matches. 4. Give it out and hope the match helps you. Other options to add to this?

Yep... and since then they have changed their ways. I think... I have not helped that match in some time.... I remember telling them that wouldn’t go too well long term— but I digress.. I believe we are at a cross roads for staff.. soon match fees will go up to make sure staff is not paying to work.

I’d have to say that maybe 20%of match participant’s are super competitive and care about where they place more than a casual oh ok I got 1st (fill in the blank). 80% just want to have fun... so In my opinion this view is not the norm..

From a staff perspective, this can suck the fun out of something.. When X Competitor thinks that D to C or a C to an A hit will make or break them in the match they often make life miserable for everyone else.. Order of finish cash prizes typically make the matches far more challenging to officiate.. The only matches I’ve seen prize table walks at are matches that are multi day where the entire competitor base is around the last day.. IE Nats.. most other do cash payback.. I have a problem with cash payback.. If you are doing that and a staff member comes out of pocket to work the match, then the staff is actually PAYING the payback... So that shooter getting $150 or $1000 is money that wouldn’t be used to get staff expenses covered... yes there have been matches that do cash payback while staff gets a free match fee, a T-shirt, and free lunches and then have to cover their own hotel.. I remember working one where the roach hotel was $85 a night.... for 3 days...

That is my point... having travelled the country shooting matches in multiple areas and states— Many of the younger athletic types lack the budget to travel for this.. and the majority of the shooters Are of the opinion fun, but not so crazy... And I think if it lasted long enough it MAY be ok... consider the hard as hell 3 gun match... it is well attended now.. but 3 gunners have money... short term— 3-4 years... may be a struggle.

So here is a different thought on this subject... I have heard of some this have a belief that level 2 and higher needs to be extremely tough... think hard mudder ... If someone says that a level 2 or level 3 match needs to be so demanding and tough that you have to be an A or above just to shoot it well, would you consider it? Or do you think it will be attended enough to even break even financially? Or do you this is just overboard? Or is it a good idea ?

The height of 1.5 inches is recommended but the first part of the rule is what is key here... Shooting Boxes and Fault Lines should be constructed of wooden boards or other suitable material, must be fixed firmly in place, and provide both physical and visual references to competitors. Must be fixed.... and provide .... The reason for the height is to have a reference of where the fault line is.. in this image there is no clear reference to where that fail line ends... If I was on an ARB committee I’d remove the procedurals... as an RM— tell the MD to fix it...

Is that MD an RO? Maybe bring this to the attention of the SC or AD to provide guidance... or a local RM OR RMI..

It gets even more than just the stage staff. Often you have people coming from a long way off and they are there days before a even the stage staff get there.. At A8 this year, I arrived on Tuesday night to go thru stages for final approval. And that was 2 days before the rest of the staff. We spent over a day working on fixing smallish stage issues. So a 3 day match May mean you have some staff there for 5-6 days... I left Sunday night which meant I had 5 days on site and a 6th for travel.. There were at least 10-12 others on site BEFORE I got there... For most level 2 matches, the team is local. But not always... for level 3 you will have a significant number arriving up to 4 days before the match to put it on the ground.... That creates a lot of hotel expense...