J.L. Hardy

Guys, I have also had this issue with the KKM barrels I have used. I also spoke with Kevin at length regarding this and He had indicated that at some point (when he had to get new reamers) he would start cutting the chambers so that they were not roughed in too long for 9x19. I have always had good communications with Kevin and have found they generally give good customer service. The way I resolved this issue was to cut the chamber to depth with the 9mm reamer and then go back and clean up the step with a 38 super reamer. I found this to be acceptable after figuring out that we use the same bullet diameter in 9mm as 38 super and I measured the case thickness of numerous 38 super cases and 9x19 cases and found that they were essentially the same. The super reamer measured 1 one thousandth larger at the chamber end and this was enough to take out the step.

Newguy, What powder were you using? Back in the days of 175 pf it was not unusual for a barrels life to be less than 15000 rounds when used with the faster, higher flame temp, abrasive powders. When I started my 9mm project the first thing I did was contact the barrel manufacturer of the barrels that I was using at the time and seek his advise on acceptable powders for the small case capacity open guns like the 9x19 and 9x21. According to our lengthy discussion the powder which is designed specifically for small case capacity open class ipsc style guns is VV 3n38. In the same conversation he stated that another powder had the same burn rate and cool flame temp, but it was hard to get, that powder turned out to be SP2. I happened to have an eight pound jug at the time that I hadn't even tried. I tried it and liked it enough to expend the effort to find a source for a quantity that will keep me shooting for a long time. Hopefully until they start importing it again. I also shot alot of 3n38 through my guns and it performs very well and the case will hold more than enough to even make the old PF. The thing I hear most often is that 3n38 is expensive. When I compare the per round loading cost the difference in 3n38 and the cheaper powders is insignificant at most. The difference in brass costs between 9mm and 38 supercomp is significant though. As for reloading the brass, I have reloaded pieces of brass 5 times and saw no signs of stress. As far as performance of the two calibers: The least you could expect is that you could tell no difference in the two when shot in two guns set up exactly the same way. I have performed this comparision and in the guns I have, I absolutly could not tell the difference. Now that is not to say that others design would not show some small differences. If a gun uses longer barrels and longer comps then the powder volume can make a difference in efficiency. With the shorter guns the porting, whether its porting in the barrel or in the comp, is closer to the powder charge and is just as efficient as a longer gun with more powder. The other thing I realized was that in the same exact setup the 9x19 tended to use 1 grain less of the same powder than the 38 supercomp. Understand that I'm not trying to say that any of the fine guns that are available from other members here would be any less suitable for any given shooter than one of the others. This is just the same type of debate that went on over the suitability of 40 S&W for limited guns which has proven over time to be the dominant choice for serious shooters. I have also heard that 9mm is more difficult to reload. I personally have not found this to be the case. If you are a reloader who practices normal standard procedures while reloading then there is no difference in what caliber you reload. Another thing to note is that 9x19 has always been allowed in open division. The previous requirement was that it be loaded to 38 super lengths. This required a longer bullet to get enough of the bullet in the case for it to hold on to. The suitable bullets for this were in the 147 grain range and the lighter, faster bullets just proved to be more popular.

Jake, When the gun is set up right and the mags are set up right and ammo is right there are no reliability issues. Good shooting, J.L. Hardy

I had the same problem with a short gun that had a long rib schuman hybrid barrel with 6 ports angled forward. This was the type barrels that came with a front sight and we shortened it and threaded it for a comp. The first C-more i put on it lasted 5 shots before blowing the top off above the glass. The solution came with Using a OKO sight which is 1.100 inches shorter than a C-more. I used the STI mount and shortened it by taking off the rear screw hole where the mount attaches to the frame and moving the mount back so that the sight was even with the back of the slide. That has been a couple of years back and its still working as far as I know. I did have some durability issues with the first OKO's but maybe that has been worked out. Good Luck.

Austin, check to make sure that there is at least .060 space between the hook of the extractor and the breechface. You can look up Bob's article on extractor fitting in one of the editions of front sight and he explains this in detail. I have found this alot lately. The case rim of super comp is a little thicker than both the armscor and TJ brass. Good shooting, J.L. Hardy

Scott, Technically speaking the gun that Max shoots could be classified as a short gun. He uses a tru-bore set up which is shorter that some folks "short guns" he also lightens the slide up extesively with holes drilled in it. Matt has been shooting a SV IMM gun that would definately be called a short gun (He May have changed though). And Travis is a Limited guns expert and should be expected to shoot an Open gun that feels alot like his limited gun. Rob is the king of limited shooters and the same could be said of him in regards to the choice of an open gun. We have all batted around the definition of a short gun. You should try a few different variations and find out what you like personally, not what someone tells you that you should like. By the way you wouldn't go wrong having Dan build you either one. good shooting, J.L. Hardy

Guys, we all know the classification system is what it is. That was not the question asked. Obviously the question asked is how to better serve the many shooters who enjoy shooting this high quality match. The suggestion I would have is to either do away with the prizes all together or do a random prize give away on Saturday night. The biggest complaint I have is how late it gets on Sunday night waiting around for the awards and prize table. The prize table has become pretty much a random give away as it is and that part could be taken care of on Saturday night. Lots of other quality matches just do awards and cash paybacks based on the number of shooters in a given class/division making that option fair as well. Prizes are not what we really enjoy anyway. We really enjoy this type of high quality match and seeing where we finish up in relation to all the other guys there, no matter where they are from. Good shooting

Rich, If you only have .022 inch lock up on the upper lugs that is not enough. As Benny stated the lock up should be approx. .045. I find the Nowlin Barrels contact the slide beside the breachface on each side. this is the area to the left and right to either side of the chamber and below the barrel hood. Use black ink to find the areas that come in contact. good luck. JLH

I think we all know that some folks can be downright inconsiderate when barging in on a squads limited time to look over a stage and fooling with props should never be allowed. This rule can serve a purpose to eliminate this type of misconduct from happening. I also think we need to remember that in order for this fine sport of ours to grow we need to be both shooter and spectator friendly. I personally know of a club that we all used to love to go to to attend matches at that became notorious for being shooter and spectator unfriendly, going so far as to not allow anyone to film shooters unless they were shooting with the squad. That club no longer has any major matches. Maybe that was their goal, but that type of attitude does nothing for the sport. I have shot for the last several years and this was the first time in the southeast that I can remember that shooters and spectators were prohibited from entering stages during down time and that minor inconvenience was unpleasant to me. The rest of the match was great, though. Good shooting JLH

CKING, reread your post and your are right you did say put in the buffer and mark. which would give you the answer you would be looking for as well as my method. Good shooting, J.L. Hardy

Cking, when you put a buffer in it absolutely will not come back as far as without one. This will be by the thickness of the buffer. buffers do not cause spring bind. the spring being too long to colapse inside the spring plug is what causes bind. to check for spring bind put the spring on the guide rod then put the spring plug on the spring and colapse it down just as if the slide was in recoil. the spring plug should come against the head of the guide rod or shock buff. if it does then there is no spring bind. if it doesn't then trim a half coil off until it does. I have made a tool to make this easier. i take an old bushing wrench and drill a half inch hole in the middle and fit this over the spring plug. then i colapse the spring sort of like pushing the plunger on a syringe. If you are using a bushing type barrel with a short spring plug then you must perform this test with the barrel and bushing in the slide. you simply assemble the top end as though it was on the gun and use your thumb to push the guide rod up as in recoil and see if the head or shock buff goes all the way against the spring tunnel on the slide. if it does, no spring bind. if it doesn't then trim the spring as above until it does. good shooting, J.L. Hardy

JFD, Stage 8 was a very interesting stage and worked amazingly well. Just one suggestion. When you do the slider again put sticks or something on the sides of the target. When I shot it the target was unavailable the entire time it was in the opening except for the last 6 inches due to the wind blowing the target straight out towards the shooter. The one shot I got on it while it was visible on the move was probably over an inch long from bottom to top. Otherwise, it was a fun stage and put together well. The whole match was great and ran very smoothly and my squad members were a great bunch.Good shooting, J.L. Hardy

So chuck, since my gun is so far the shortest are you somehow implying it to be inferior? Even though you have never fired a round through one. See, that's how folks who are passionate about their hard work could somehow take a statement and turn it into one with an alterior motive. The discussion has become a Ford or Chevy kind of thing. I just hope everybody realizes, Just as Dan implied, you can't buy skill. It is interesting how the different setups measure up. I would agree that any gun that has had the slide shortened in any appreciable way could legitimately be called a shorty. Roger appears to be interested in how much difference is there in the various configurations. Good shooting, J.L. Hardy

Since it seems we have a lot of dancing around about the actual measurements (sounds like a bunch of guys don't it) I have the shortest one yet (no joke). The current 9mm mongoose measures 8.375". This is a true commander slide and 5 port comp of my own design.

Chuck, you are right on with your sumation with what it takes to use the 5 inch recoil system in the short gun. But you also uncover the problem associated with someone setting up a gun using the commander setup that doesn't know the correct springs to use. You cannot simply shorten gov't springs to fit the system. The commander springs and Gov't springs are two different animals. If you shorten Gov't springs you must do just as you stated- use progressively heavier spring rates to make them work. Commander springs have a different compression rate and are properly proportioned giving them the proper functionality and "feel". Again, i don't think one could state that one gun set up properly would be dramatically different from the other gun properly set up. Both systems are good. Good shooting, J.L. Hardy

Dan, until someone designs a piece of equipment that measures linear recoil and muzzel flip in some sort of numerical way there simply are too many variables and feel is just too subjective. Again, I am not critical of the system you use either the standard spring or the recoilmaster. Obviously, they both work for you. Good shooting, J.L. Hardy

Dan, as you probably know that analysis is completely subjective. I have had just as many folks make the same comments regarding use of the commander system. In reality both systems are just as good. It really comes down to aestetics. Does the owner care or mind that the recoil plug hangs out there under the comp? Please don't take this as critical of the system you use. I have used both as well. I just came to the conclusion that with the proper choice of recoil springs, there just isn't a dimes worth of difference in the two. As I understand it you use a recoilmaster and this does have a different feel to it. Some folks like that feel and others don't. This pretty much makes the choice subjective to different shooters. As long as the gun is reliable and the shooter spends the time and effort to practice with what they have it isn't going to make a difference in their ability either. good shooting, J.L. hardy

nhgyln, if you are using standard 38 super (not super comp) you will get at least 1 less round than the rimless varaitions. if you have a true 170 mm mag tube and either a dawson +1 or bevins mag pad then you shoud easily get 28 of any of the rimless. usually you can get 29 out of an sv tube and some sti tubes, but the sti will be tight on the last couple. check to see if the spring is longer than the other ones ( if you have another) a coil or two could cause it to hold less. also when everything is new you sometimes have to bump the mag against your palm to settle the rounds down and then put in the last 2. good shooting, j.l. hardy

erik, don't do anything to your mags until you take out the mag catch and insert them to see if they drop free. most of the time the mags aren't the culprit the catch is. sti catches tend to drag on the front of sv tubes. generally you can either get a sv catch or relieve the sti one and things will be good. good shooting, j.l. hardy

when building any 5" version i have found sti slide to frame fits to be very acceptable. if i were to get one that was not i would send it back. i do not like to let anyone else fit a barrel for me. this would include cutting the frame ramp. problem is they (sti) won't supply fit commander slides and frames, which is what i normally use so i end up fitting them myself anyway. there are a whole lot of high dollar guns built on factory fitted slide and frames. and even some on short blocks that include the barrel fitting. this shouldn't be construed to be a negative in any way. most gunsmiths would choose to fit them in order to gain the revenue that the factory would charge

mcoliver, what you refer to is a result of the fitting and not the ball detent. properly fitted the slide racker should be snug, but not press fit. the ball detent maintains spring pressure on the racker and comes to rest in a detent in the racker itself. properly fitted it will not shoot out. i have had one on my open gun for several thousands of rounds and its still the same as the day it was installed.good shooting, j.l. hardy

whatever set up you decide on you can use the govt springs if you decide to let the recoil plug hang out there under the comp. if you don't like this then you use the commander reverse plug and commander springs. i used to cut back govt springs but have found that just using wolff commander springs gives me the results i want. its all a factor of personal preference an aestitics it will work either way. good shooting, j.l. hardy

john, you should consult bob at brazos or dan bedell because this is the way they build short guns. bob uses shortened govt slides to build his top of the line guns. the difference is that bob has special trubore type barrels and dan uses bull barrels. obviously the shortest of these two are the trubores as this eliminates the threaded part of the bull barrel past the slide or approx 1/2 inch. comp length also plays a role in how short a gun is. good luck. j.l. hardy

derick, i have tried the reshaping of the trigger bow. when you reshape it by dressing it down it gets too thin and will then flex, giving a mushy feeling trigger. good shooting , j.l. hardy

these barrels are not stock items. they are custom pieces from sti and have to be bought in quantity to have them made. the comp is of my own design for the 9mm. the stinger barrel is 3.9 inches and sti says they aren't going to make them available to the public. so you have to buy the gun. the keeper of the barrels is a member here and can speak up if he wishes. good shooting, j.l. hardy