Spangler

Hi, Sorry if I'm missing it... I just looked at the website and didn't see entry forms or information. Are they there? thanks

Just wanted to say THANK YOU to all you guys helping me solve my bullet problem! One of the things I love most about this sport is that people are always willing to go out of their way to help competitiors. I've been involved in many sports over the years and have never experienced this. THANKS see you at the Cup!

thanks guys...tried to order MG but website is turned off and phone message box is full and not taking messges. Looks like I won't be practicing much before the cup. I shoot Zero 125g conical. or 124 MG.

Me too Greg, or at least I want to. I odered bullets from them a couple months ago but haven't heard anything. I've sent them a couple e-mails to see if I'm going to get enought to shoot the cup or if I need to change. Anybody have any suggestions? thanks mark

WAPC Question, can somebody help me out? I use a smoker for my sights. I'm pretty sure taking carbide on the plane is a VERY bad idea. Can I get it in Germany? Thanks!

Then it would be ok to cut a 686 plus and use moon clips??? Don't think so...

Kevin, That's 'cause she pays the cable bill

Similar note...Does anyone know if Germany has turning targets? If not, I want to be practicing with timer only. thanks

complete results can be found... http://www.nrahq.org/compete/natpdf/Bianchi_12_Final.pdf

I'll also add that there is something MUCH harder than shooting at plates with that dark background. That's shooting them in the snow Talk about having to fucus!

So THAT's why I missed so many plates at 25 this year...It was the background, sight color, sight width, sun in my (open) eyes, dusty ground, bouncy mat combination... And I was upset because I thought it was just me being stressed out about my gun jams and losing my ^&%%$^. I feel much better now not

Sent PM with some load info...not sure it came thorugh very well. Let me know.

Sorry but... "I wouldn't have minded getting there a few days sooner but being a Newlywed isn't the reason why I can't. I needed to save some of my vacation days for somewhere to go with the wife later." Sounds and AWEFULL lot like "I can't go because I'm a newlywed" lol. Maybe I've just been married too long (or too many times ) Not sure I understand the difference, but if it makes you feel better...

Hey all, I now understand there are 12 people on the USA Shooting team to go to Germany. As we all know, the USA does not fund athlete's like some other countries so we're left to find our own way. Here's the catch, NRA has very limited funding available for the team. Tickets from the east coast are running about $1200 round trip right now. Does anyone out there know of a private business willing to help fund the team? PM me if you have any thoughts, we'd like to raise at least $10,000. thanks

I think they pay 20 places in Metallic and 50 for production...

Well said Kim, I also reached out and received a similar response...and I have to agree with their feelings... While I am also very driven and believe there is ALWAYS room for improvment in pretty much every aspect of our lives; I've found the old addage "Praise in public, criticize in private" to be VERY prudent when trying to accomplish those imporvments. thanks

They have Metallic Rimfire National records listed...

BTW...sorry, Just can't let this go...Shouldn't "is there a production rimfire" be a in a different thread than "Marketing NRA AP"?

Again keeping in mind that I am still fairly new and may need a history lesson...I'm trying to understand how it became the sole responsibility of the NRA to promote, market, or grow Action Pistol? IDPA and USPSA (both mentioned) take care of that in their world. NRA supports those associations, but not NRA's duty to grow their sport. I look at NRA's PRIMARY responsibility as doing whatever they have to do to make sure I keep my rights to own guns and enjoy all shooting sports as well as defend my home. I think it's AWESOME that in addition to that they have competitive shooting programs which give us opportunities like the Bianchi Cup. Assuming that they are interested in growing the sport...my suggestion might be simply better coverage of AP. In monthly magazines, mailers, e-mails, etc. I've been an NRA member for MANY years and had no idea there even was an AP until I joined the Bedford Club. People tend to go toward the lights...If there were some way for NRA to simply put more effort into the marketing, it may well make a difference... BUT, Isn't it just as much or more OUR responsibility to grow the sport if we want it grown? I would ask ALL clubs, what they do to promote the sport? Truth is we all struggle with that and we have direct contact with members on a regular basis. We have 110 members, maybe 10 shoot, why? We certainly talk about it enough...We try to promote it internally…How do WE get people’s attention at our level to join the sport. Maybe we need find someone to create an APSA (Action Pistol Shooting Association), with our own promotion, marketing, and recognition programs... However, that would take some folks working very hard, taking a lot of responsibility, keeping things organized, putting up with a lot of crap and unnecessary complaints while getting very little praise, support, or recognition for the effort. Oh ya, we already had them and managed to *&*^ them off over how they do a job no one else wants…As Alan says..Just my.02 mark

Being a research statistics guy...I absolutely agree with Kevin, It is very unlikely that the speed of sound is having any significant affect on bullet flight at 50 yards. Here is some data I've put together. some of it is from these posts, one of Kevin's tests, and others from manuals. First note...it appears all the major ammo manufacturers use the same book. Their numbers are exactly the same, likely from calculation, not testing (see Rem and HDY data). This is only part of the spread I put togehter and bullet weight does not seem to do anything but change the % slightly...What I did see in the data is that bullets starting out faster will slow at a faster rate and the effect is nearly linear. What this means is you get more variance in speed from 1300fps than if you start at 1150, and the difference is VERY significant. This shows up both in % reduction and real FPS change. I suspect it's largely that change which has created the perception that transonic causes issues. Again, with a fast spinning projectile, there would be little "flutter" in any case. Maybe able to argue less so in a 1/24 than a 1/32 barrel since it spins faster, but that's going pretty deep... Also, MOST of our loads go transonic inside 50yds as pretty much anything starting out under 1250 will be subsonic before 50yds at 90F. Assuming speed of sound between 1095fps(40F) and 1149fps(90F), I would guess most our best loads fall through this range at some point during the year. The next question is WHERE they go transonic. If we do beleive transonic impacts flight there would be a significant difference between going transonic 2 feet from the barrel VS 2 feet from the target. Do our best loads change through the year as temp and SOS change (taking aside temp sensitive powders)? I think the general rule here as most of you are hitting on is to simply find the best load for YOUR gun setup and don't worry about speed as long as you're over PF. I shot a 1.5" group yesterday at 100yds (yes, I load test at 100) with my Gilmore (pics to come)that I'm sure went subsonic in the first 50yds. The temp was ~40 so SOS should have been ~1090. Muzzle Vel was 1117 making 50yds vel ~1040 and 100yds vel well below SOS. hope this helps... muzzle 50Yds Diff. % Diff 1300 1150 150 11.54% Post 1250 1120 130 10.40% Post 1250 1113 137 10.96% 115 FMJ REM +P 1200 1086 114 9.50% Post 1155 1047 108 9.35% 115 XTP HDY 1155 1047 108 9.35% 115 FMJ REM 1150 1070 80 6.96% Post 1136 1038 98 8.63% Kevin 1130 1067 63 5.58% 115JHP-FED 1100 1017 83 7.55% Post

I'll start this by saying that I only just finished my second full year of AP and MOST of the folks on here have by far much more experience and knowledge than I. That's mostly why you rarely hear from me, but I'm guessing there are some newbies that also read so here goes. IF anyone doubts Kevin's ability to make a (any) gun shoot very well or Alan's knowledge of working through loads and testing, please see my pic. I bought Kevin's back up gun last year (Jan 2010). Keep in mind I had never owned a 1911 until then. Alan had to take it apart for me so I could clean it (and then put it back together) ... This group was shot with 231 powder and Montana Gold bullets at 50 yards off a sand bag, and yes the first shot went into the berm as Alan suggests. This completely makes sense when testing. At that point we are just testing load accuracy. Understood that's different than in a match situation, but I doubt Kevin sights his gun off sand bags either. Get the best group out of your gun, then set the sights to zero point. I also shot sub 2.5" group at 100yds (NOT a typo)last weekend out of my Metallic STI that Kevin worked on including reaming to 9x23 and doing a trigger job. I figure if testing at 50 is good then 100 is twice as good, right? I'd guess they might both tell you I'm a bit retentive when it comes to testing and load data. I acutally have several points here. 1-Having the right person set up your gun is absolutely invaluable...2-Getting the MOST out of your gun can take a lot of testing, but WELL worth it and results may amaze you. Don't take shortcuts here. 3-Don't underestimate MG bullets 4-And MOST IMPORTANT---LISTEN to what others tell you and at least try it. I'm incredibly lucky to belong to the Bedford Club and get all the advice and help from these guys. Where else could you get into AP where even with only 2 years experience...They are able to help me win over 20 plaques, set 5 National records, and be Distinguished in both Open and Metallic classes??? Thanks guys..Hope all have a Great Christmas and look forward to seeing you next year!! Mark

THANK YOU!!!! It was awesome. A few minor bugs to work out for next year, but it will keep getting better thanks Greg, I'm getting closer!! only got me by 17 this time

not too late to move back Not worth staying there if they don't even have a decent range!!! We still haven't replaced you on the board..