Thomas H

…so you'd better be prepared. And we'd like to help. The Eastern Nebraska Practical Shooters ( http://www.easternnebraskapracticalshooters.com ) are having their 2nd Annual Zombie Match on Sunday, October 30th. Shooter's Briefing starts at 9am, with registration starting at 7:30am. (So show up at 7am to help set up, which will make everyone happy, and the match will run more smoothly!) Cost: $20 OR a new-in-the-box toy -- because this is a charity match for the Marine Toys-For-Tots Foundation. All money/toys from this match will be donated to the Marines. (And this year, we are trying to make sure the Marine representatives are able to shoot the match. Last year they were in their dress uniforms with borrowed guns trying to get in a stage or two. This year, I believe they are coming in more "appropriate" zombie-hunting garb and gear.) Match Rules: a combination of USPSA safety rules along with time-based scoring. This is a pistol-only competition (maybe next year we'll go back to a 3-gun version) with both centerfire and rimfire pistol divisions. See: http://precisionresponse.4t.com/Zombie1/ZombieMatch.html for all details, rules, and in a few weeks, some stage descriptions. Read the new target/scoring rules carefully---we have a new class of dangerous target this year, and you have to treat it differently… Come on out and get some Zombie Hunter training! Range: Eastern Nebraska Gun Club at http://www.engc.us (Louisville is south of Omaha, NE)

According to the scores from last night, Matt Griffin has 815.8272 points after shooting stages 7-18. Jerry has 864.2944 points after shooting stages 7-18 and 3. And Jerry scored 54.6608 points on stage 3. ...so today should be an interesting day.

The link has been posted already, but some more information: The Eastern Nebraska Practical Shooters host two matches each month. On the first Sunday of each month is a 5-stage USPSA match, on the third Sunday of the month is either a Steel Challenge match or a Multigun match. Occasionally the Sundays move around a bit due to holidays, etc, but you get the general idea. ENPS Website: http://www.easternnebraskapracticalshooters.com The matches are held at the Eastern Nebraska Gun Club http://www.engc.us near Louisville, which is a little south of Omaha. We have a Multigun match tomorrow--you are welcome to come out and shoot. If nothing else, you might wander out and take a look at the range. (ENGC also hosts a LOT of different types of rifle shoots---info for those is on the ENGC website.)

Not really, no. It is a sport, like any other. There are rules for those who wish to compete. Follow the rules, competition goes just fine. In Production division, there is very little competitors need to do, equipment-wise, to be able to compete. As for "scales in wrestling are calibrated" --- indeed so. Just as in a large match, your ammo is chronoed so that you "make weight" or in our case, power factor. How you do that (longer barrel, hotter loads, heavier bullets) is up to you. There are a number of simple choices. Ammo makers can't set PF levels, because each gun will run differently---and it isn't their job, anyway. This isn't for an afternoon plinking at tin cans. If you want to compete, you have to have the equipment that is required. If you don't---then either borrow it, or go back to plinking at tin cans. In a Level II match if you show up with a 2 inch barrel on a 5-shot revolver for Production, you can compete. You won't be competitive, and you'll have problems making power factor---but that is your problem, and your choice. (Might be fun in a local match once, with enough speed loaders. Lots and lots of speed loaders...) Plenty of ammo out there (commercially available in all sorts of places, easy to find) will make power factor in standard-size firearms that are legal for Production. If that particular requirement is too onerous, chances are USPSA isn't for you. (As for "ammo names that I have yet to see in local shops" ---so buy online.) Federal 115 gr makes minor in 5" barrels. WWB makes Minor in 4" barrels. I'm betting Wolf and Tula will make it in 4" barrels, though I haven't checked. Other cheap ammo will do the same. Plenty of 124 and 147 gr ammo available, too. Atlanta Arms and Ammo will be happy to ship ammo to you, and Universal Ammo (Manny Bragg et al) will do the same. Or, you know, do what many people do and reload. It isn't that hard. And like people have said, it isn't as if people normally run a chrono at Level I matches anyway. If a particular competitor is worried about winning a level II match but WWB won't make Minor in their firearm, chances are their firearm isn't going to be competitive anyway. (Sevigny might be able to win Production using a G26, but the rest of us couldn't. Come to think of it, I'd really like to see that. ) Summation of this rambling: finding ammunition that makes Minor in the guns allowed in Production isn't difficult. It is a competition, not an afternoon out with friends plinking for bragging rights to "best shooter." Getting access to a chrono isn't difficult, given the shooting community. Buy some, reload some, either way it isn't difficult. If you want to compete, do some research, be prepared, have your ammo beforehand, and check it. Very straightforward.

Ah. Excellent. And very clearly stated. Thank you!

My point was simple---it seemed that they were trying to make sure people weren't getting bumped to Open for things that happened either before the shooting starts, or after the shooting ends. This, however, is different from things during the actual shooting. When I read it, it seemed to deal with pulling a mag out of a pocket to load, and putting it back to finally unload---and this seems separate from what people do/how they are while actually shooting. As I said, now that it has been introduced, I can see the argument for having an empty mag for unloading that way---but I don't think the interpretation actually was about that situation. I'm fine with people changing my mind, but I don't think it reads that way. That all being said, this entire discussion has been about how we can STOP people from being bumped to Open. After all, the rule was such that people should have been bumped before (whether it was happening or not). And now they aren't, due at least in part to our discussion. As such, saying "are we still trying to find a way to DQ somebody?" seems the exact opposite of what people have managed to do in this forum. Back to the point: Does this interpretation seem to change what is allowed during the shooting part of a course if fire? (Weird to actually have to be specific about when we are talking about during the course of fire. )

First: Thank you! Second, a question: So, retrieving a mag from a pocket to drop the hammer on a mag-safety gun is o.k., but placing a mag in a front pocket during unloading in still a move to open? Retrieved...... Interpretation might need "...or placed in a front pocket" while unloading at the end of a COF.... When I read that, my thoughts were: 1) initial loading from a front pocket is okay. 2) final unloading into a front pocket is okay. (because they specifically said "Production and Single Stack equipment locations are NOT intended to complicate loading before the start signal or unloading." 3) don't have a mag in front of the hip bone during after initial loading or before final unloading, because that will put you in Open. It did NOT occur to me that having an unloaded mag in a front pocket through the course of fire to drop the hammer on a mag-safety gun at the end would be legal---and I'm thinking it doesn't mean that. I'm thinking that any mag that is in front of your hip bone during the shooting part---after initial loading, and before the final unload---is still going to get you put in Open. If I'm wrong, I'm fine with that---but your comment would not have occurred to me. Upon thought, it makes sense---but I don't know how many people would get that out of this interpretation. Or maybe it is just me.

Says it right toward the top of the squadding page. For example, on the Lim/Prod page: "Squads 1-18 have AM/PM/AM start times over the 3 days of shooting. Squads 19-36 have PM/AM/PM start times." And on the L-10/Open/Rev page: "Squads #1-18 have start have AM/PM/AM/PM start times over the 4 days of shooting. Squads 19-36 have PM/AM/PM/AM start times. " ...Now, if you mean exact stage times for each squadding, I assume that eventually there will be a squadding matrix release on the Nationals page, as has been said.

I'm sorry you took it as an insult, as it certainly wasn't mean that way. I meant precisely what I said, in that people were moving faster and attempting to shoot faster than they could actually do it. This is actually quite common, really. How many times do we see shooters of every level come back with poor points on a stage and say, "I should have slowed down?" or "Maybe I should have taken the time to aim." Pretty often, right? This is just the same thing---if your movement is ahead of your shooting, or your sights are ahead of your trigger finger, then 1) you are going faster than your skill level allows, and 2) you are going to do poorly on that stage. If you move into a position, shoot fast, then move out of the position, your skill level had better be such that you are fast enough to shoot AND retract the gun before moving uprange. (Especially if your movement uprange is very fast.) If you are shooting on the move, and your movement is quick, your trigger finger better be quick also or your movement will put you past targets before you are finished shooting at them. I could say similar things about reloads, ports, activators, etc---plenty of people, quite often, overrun their shooting ability. At all levels. (Ex: Leatham at the SC in Piru on Smoke and Hope. We've all seen the video--he is rockin' fast. And yet, I'll bet he'll tell you that he should have slowed down a tenth or two here and there, because he had an extra shot on almost every run, adding a lot more time than that extra tenth of a second would have. He's still faster than most everyone else---but he was overrunning his ability. Whenever we push things, that can happen. In Leatham's case, though, he's STILL faster than most even when he has to make up for it. ) If you think that M and GM types don't overrun their ability levels sometimes---then I think you need to think about it more. It isn't personal--it is something everyone does once in awhile when they push themselves. Recognizing when it is happening is important, in my opinion. And when it is too dangerous to try it. On stage 12 (for example) everyone was told that wall was close, and that crowding it was problematic. Given that, recognizing that it is a spot to be careful (especially when a shooter is planning on pushing the envelope elsewhere) is important. Sometimes "important" means "I'll lose time here if I screw up" and sometimes "important" means "it isn't safe to screw up here."

Well, opinions vary. For example, if people had stepped back and to the right, there was plenty of room. And every single person who stepped back and engaged the target on the right side first had no problems at all either with the wall, or keeping their gun forward of the 180. (And it didn't slow them down---quite the contrary, they saved a good amount of time, actually, since they didn't have to go so far into a position, and then get back out of it.) From observing the same stage over four days of shooting---if you crowded the left wall, it was hard to both enter and leave the position, as you had to bend around it--in one DQ case, a person was too close to the wall and bent the gun around it to get into position, and in the other case, the person left the shooting position before the gun was retracted from around the wall, which caused the gun to hang behind them as they left. The second person started moving before they brought the gun back. In both cases, crowding the wall caused the problem. If you stayed away from the wall, it was straightforward. Other people found that if they crowded the wall, but stepped to the right (it wasn't necessary to step backward) they could clear the wall easily after shooting to then move forward. The placement of the targets on the sides was actually such that if you stood at the middle of the back, you could shoot both the left and right target. You had to lean a little, but it was there. Several people shot 2 alpha on the left-most target from the right side of the shooting area. (And the right side target wasn't nearly as crowded of a shot as the left side.) So----the only reason it was potentially a dangerous spot was if someone crowded the left wall. Which was a shooter's choice, as it wasn't necessary. Everyone who went right (and/or shot right first) had no problems. As for "a lot of targets near the 180" ----I disagree. I really can't think of a single target (even the back right one on stage 12) that was near the 180. We can't stop people from turning around and shooting something they have passed, though. In the match I shot, there was space and time to shoot every single target without coming near the 180. Maybe I'm crazy, though. If someone is moving faster than their skill level can support, AND if there is a problem as they shoot---then they might end up doing something they shouldn't. (Heck, people got DQed on stage 1 for breaking the 180 on the wide open targets on the left side!)

Stage 12 had two DQs, and both were at the front wall right at the beginning of the stage. One person didn't get far enough back to get their gun around the wall safely, so they pointed it backwards to clear the wall. The other person got around the wall all right, but didn't pull the gun back in before starting forward, so the gun was left behind when they moved, ending up pointing in an unsafe direction. In general, the 180 DQs seemed to be related to people getting tunnel vision about what they were doing NOW, and forgetting other things---so they'd swing back to something they missed, and flat out break the 180. The 180 DQs I heard about (and I worked the match, on stage 12) weren't a matter of taking a calculated shot that happened to hit 181 degrees, or cases where they had to made a shot close to the 180 and miscalculated---they were cases of "Oh, I forgot to shoot that" and pointing the gun obviously in an unsafe direction. ADs...well...they happened. And to some unlikely people, too. I will say that it certainly seemed like a number of people were over-running their current skill level, and pushing harder than they could handle.

As people have said, this is flat out not true. Otherwise we wouldn't make a rule difference between equipment placement for different divisions. No. Everyone can reach around their bodies with different amounts of ease. No one is ever at the exact same level. However, in each division, each person at least has the same starting point. If your body type/condition is such that you cannot pull mags from behind the hip, then you should compete in a division where you can reach your equipment. That's the good thing---there are plenty in which this is possible. I'll note that the argument that "an inch or two" is all that would occur is nonsense, because you will run into stages in which you will need ALL of your magazines (5 or so) on a particular stage. So either your initial problem is that you can't reach your farthest-back mag, whereupon moving the whole set "an inch or two" forward will give you a competitive advantage most of the time (as we only need that back mag sometimes) or you truly can't reach the front several mags---so the movement is going to be far more than "an inch or two". So either you will have a competitive advantage most of the time---or you'll be moving your mags quite a bit. Either way, it is obvious that Production division or SingleStack isn't for you. Actually, you've just supported his point---we do have a rule book to make things "fair"---and you know what? That's why we have different divisions. You find an equipment rules set in which you can compete, and there you go. If you can't compete under a particular set of equipment rules---then you go with a different division. While it is certainly true that this sport is about including as many people as we can, and that at Level I matches people stretch things quite a bit to include more people--in the end, you need to obey the rules. Here's my take on it: If a person's disability can be dealt with by that person shooting in a particular division, it is that shooter's responsibility to do so, if possible. For the case mentioned, that means shooting L-10 or Limited instead of Production or SingleStack. (Or Open, if you've got the money.) If, on the other hand, a person's disability is something that can only be fixed by special case (meaning that division equipment requirements aren't the problem, such as having NO LEGS), then it should be dealt with on a match-by-match basis. The sport is for the shooters---but the shooters are responsible for dealing fairly with both the rules of the sport, and with each other. This isn't public school, and people don't get accommodations for every possible case---first, the shooter needs to try to find a way to shoot within the rules. If they choose to make it harder on themselves, that was their choice, wasn't it?

Thanks!

Stages are up! http://www.uspsa3.org/ Dang, that was quick, I literally just got them up about 2 minutes before your post. ...but I see that the "All Stages" zip files doesn't include 4B - Down Under.

Stages are up! http://www.uspsa3.org/

Match is coming up...stages are being built.... ...it is going to be a good time, so you'd better get your registrations in!

This one's easy: If during the course of fire, stop the shooter, then take what ever steps are necessary to safely retrieve and clear the firearm. If you are unsure of how a particular gun works, secure it and seek guidance. We don't expect you to be an expert on every gun, we do expect you to think through what is necessary to maintain everyone's safety. There should be no rush.... Yep, got that, very straightforward. Yep, got that too. And herein lies the problem. This thread has contained statements about what does and does not constitute "handling," where there seems to be an important distinction made about hand usage---though only George seems to be making that distinction, based on former threads that have been resurrected. (Sherwyn, Drazy, Gary all said differently in the past.) This isn't a poke at George---he knows the rules far better than I do. He's just made the statement that "we" discussed this, and that it is being taught in RO classes now. I just don't know who "we" is, nor have I seen any official-type written-format statements from NROI about this...but he seems really certain about it. I don't want to DQ someone if the rules don't state that a DQ is merited. Quite so. And in this case, I'll probably ask my RMs before the matches, to clarify. However, I much prefer that rules are clear enough that I don't have to start each pre-match meeting with a set of clarification questions, as in "So, in THIS match, how are we ruling on situation A..." I still would like to know if there has ever been any official communication from NROI about this possible change in the meaning and scope of the word "handling" as used in USPSA. (Because to my knowledge this is different from the way "handling" has been defined and applied in the past.)

...unless you are shooting a Glock pistol. The cheap Federal ammo makes 134-136 PF in my G34, both using my chrono, and the chrono at Area 5. Makes almost that much in a couple of different Gen 4 G17s we have, too. So, if you _aren't_ using a Glock, then yes, be careful with the Federal. IF using a Glock 17 or 34, it'll probably be fine. But truthfully, no matter WHAT you are doing, you should find a way to chrono it before a big match to make sure.

But according to George, that isn't what is being taught in RO classes these days. Specifically: Technically, no. This is a different scenario altogether. In your case, the applicable rule is still 10.5.1 IF you handle the gun (see the App A3 definition). If you simply trap it against your body without using your hand, no DQ. Just call for a RO to take care of it. We know shooters instinctively react to the gun starting to fall and it was decided that no DQ should apply in such a case as long as the gun is not being "handled". See App A3 also for the definition of "dropped gun" and notice that this definition only applies during the COF. That is the key to what I have mentioned here. There is no penalty for dropping the gun outside of the COF. A DQ only applies if you pick it up or handle it. This is being taught in RO classes these days. So I'm left with my cluelessness. I'm going to be a range official for a couple of level II and level III matches in the next two months--and while I hope no one drops a gun in any manner at all, I think I'd like to know what exactly I should call. Outside the course of fire, for some reason not related to a competitor touching the pistol with their hands, an unloaded gun comes out of the holster and is trapped by the competitor against their body, NOT using their hands. They call an RO over to handle and clear it. What's the call? My previous experience tells me that is a DQ, and I've seen it happen in large matches before. George, is there any particular ruling or anything you can point to that says this does not qualify as "handling" so I won't have to call it a DQ? When you say "it was decided" who do you mean?

I looked around, but couldn't find anything. Perhaps my search-fu is weak... ...and then, at least, I find something. In which Sherwyn, Drazy, Gary, and George give differing opinions. For example, Sherwyn, Drazy, and Gary think trapping is a DQ, and George doesn't. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=113624&hl=trapping%20the%20gun&st=0 So....which is it?

I looked around, but couldn't find anything. Perhaps my search-fu is weak...

Technically, no. This is a different scenario altogether. In your case, the applicable rule is still 10.5.1 IF you handle the gun (see the App A3 definition). If you simply trap it against your body without using your hand, no DQ. Just call for a RO to take care of it. We know shooters instinctively react to the gun starting to fall and it was decided that no DQ should apply in such a case as long as the gun is not being "handled". See App A3 also for the definition of "dropped gun" and notice that this definition only applies during the COF. That is the key to what I have mentioned here. There is no penalty for dropping the gun outside of the COF. A DQ only applies if you pick it up or handle it. This is being taught in RO classes these days. Now THIS is interesting, because I saw someone get DQed for this last year at a major match. Outside the course of fire (we were pasting/resetting targets) one of the competitors bumped something, and his gun came out of the holster. He noticed it, and without thinking about it, trapped is against his body with his elbow. (Never touched it with his hand.) The RO DQed him for a dropped gun, and the RM supported it, as they said it was indeed a "dropped gun" that he had "handled". I see what you mean about the "dropped gun" definition in the appendix---the problem is that in 10.5.14, the rules talk about dropped guns _outside_ the course of fire, too. Of course, the word they use there instead of "handling" is "retrieve"... So I guess I'm not sure how I'd word that arb if it ever happened to me, as the definition of "handling" (though the word itself contains "hand" ) doesn't say anything about how the firearm is held. Gripping or manipulating (by hand only) makes sense, but "holding"---if you have the gun pinned against your body, isn't that "holding"? (By the current definition, at least?) Again---I'm not trying to argue against what you are saying. Trapping the gun against your body should _not_ be a DQ, in my own little know-nothing opinion. I'm just saying I'm not sure how you would win that arb given the current wording of "handling" and the word choice ("dropped gun") of 10.5.14. By saying you haven't "retrieved" the gun (as it is only currently trapped) and thus you are have not violated 10.5.14? That still leaves "holding" for having violated 10.5.1....and if the RO/CRO/RM already DQed you for this (hence the reason for the arbitration), I don't see them accepting that you weren't "holding" the firearm just because it wasn't in your hand.

2011 Great Plains Sectional: Sunday, July 10, 2011 A USPSA Level II match, hosted at Eastern Nebraska Gun Club, Louisville, NE, by the Eastern Nebraska Practical Shooters. 10 STAGES, MINIMUM 264 ROUNDS Match Meeting at 8:00am, first shot at 8:15am Match Entry Fee $65.00 if postmarked by June 30th. ($40.00 for Juniors). Entry fee postmarked July 1st. and later is $75.00, including Juniors. Refunds July 1st. or later are limited to $25.00. Match application and information (including stage diagrams) available at: http://www.easternne...11sectional.htm ---brought to you by the crazy people who hosted it last year. Should be a fun time!

Jordon, Thanks for making the squad list work at each stage! SALUTE! Squad 21 was definitely into "competitive taping", thanks guys! (David Cross) Squad 21 was great. I figured out that I had to have precut pieces of tape on my fingers ready to go if I actually wanted to tape any holes. Shooting with squad 21 was excellent--one of the things that makes a good match great, is the people you shoot with. If people have fun, and everyone helps out, it makes for a great match. I know that both Ardena and I had a great time. Next year, same squad, everyone?