Thomas H

Yup, you will find out at registration. Ray had a plan for that, but I don't remember exactly what he was doing. Hit us up when you check in and we will get with Ray on it. JT Thanks! (I'm going to be interested to see what the "Dueling Tree" stage is going to be like, and how it will be run....)

....um. Do we have to bring one? Can I wear a headlamp?

I see from the match book that there are specific squads listed for the steel---will we find out our steel squad number when we check in for the match? Or is there someplace we can look that up prior to check-in? (For example, I know that I'm shooting steel Saturday afternoon---but I don't know if I'm on Steel Squad 506, 507, 508, 509, or 510.) Mainly I'm asking in case I was supposed to squad myself somewhere for the steel section, and I missed it.

The problem is that most people _aren't_ scoring 80%+ of their hits in the A zone--and the ones that do, find that shooting major isn't a problem at all, speed-wise, so they take advantage of the scoring increase. Minor is nice as it is cheaper, with less recoil---and yet, while indeed there are a couple of people out there who can win shooting Limited Minor (or something similar), chances are, you aren't one of them. I'll note that *I'm* certainly not one of them either. And the few people who ARE----shoot major because then they can do even better in matches. Last year at Limited Nats, only two people scored in the top 100 shooting minor---and the best only reached 44th. At other Nats in 2010, Mike Hughes shot L-10 minor, and only got 21st---and yet in Production, got 7th (with everyone minor, against many of the same top people). That scoring difference is important. Yes, if recoil is a problem for you, minor might be the way to go. (So shoot Production, where it doesn't hurt you!)

No. A "180 trap" is a situation in which a shooter is forced to take a shot close to or on the 180 line---such that the viewpoint of the RO may very well decide it is past the 180 if the shooter merely turns their wrist slightly. (I must admit, I don't agree with Singlestack that there is no such thing as a 180 trap---I've seen a stage where the design was sufficiently bad that shooters had no choice but to engage targets right on the 180. The difference between a right-handed shooter and a left-handed shooter at that point gave bad results. I do think that many courses of fire receive complaints about being "traps" that are ridiculous, though---it isn't a trap if you aren't forced to engage on the 180 line. If you aren't forced, then you should be controlling your actions, shouldn't you?) If an "A" shooter did this just because it was visible, then they need to work on their control. Pretty straightforward. The situation JAFO related was merely that the target was visible from that point, not that the shooter had to engage it from that point. Just like any other spot in a course of fire---some targets are safe to engage, and some are not. His example of using the WSB notes to clarify the situation is a good idea, and makes things clear and consistent for all competitors. Good idea!

First: Just because an online discussion said that an RO had a option doesn't mean there actually was one. Indeed, it doesn't mean the rulebook isn't clear. Second: Just because the rule book gives options in some places doesn't mean that it gives options in all places. As such, "Thus no rule is etched in stone" while literally true, isn't actually true in the way you mean it. Third: A perfect hit should indeed work whether major or minor. It is how non-perfect hits are treated where the difference between major and minor shows up---and as has been discussed, B, C, and D zones, plus low hits on poppers, all show that difference. Fourth: Poppers do not need to be re-calibrated between each shooter, for reasons that have already been stated. I'm not sure how those objections relate to the original comment, which was that you can't leave something like that up to a "call" for a hit. (Other than saying that ROs have options simply means that in terms of "called hits" we are now making hits subjective, which sounds like a bad idea.)

Just a quick comment----there doesn't have to be a strike in the calibration zone for a competitor to legally challenge the calibration. Just a hit somewhere on the popper.

Chuck, (John?), Does the highlighted portion above apply only to "table starts"? I'm not John, but I don't see why it would---it is a separate statement entirely. However, I'm not Chuck either and since he was there, I'm sure he can answer this better than I. So why am I posting? Because I want to thank people on this forum who brought this to the attention of their Area directors, and to the Area directors for acting on this so quickly. There was a potential problem, it was recognized, communicated, and dealt with quickly and efficiently. Thanks, folks! Ah, clarity....

Does it matter if it "extends to the ground" even if the reality doesn't? It is soft cover---they can shoot through it. So if it "extends to the ground" but doesn't in actuality, they can still duck down and shoot in the clear no matter what.

I completly agree. If it is in my hand, I'm using it. Agreed. Apparently, though, that isn't how DNROI sees it....and that is what worries me. I just don't see hands as "equipment". Once I've grabbed it, it isn't in storage anymore. I may hold on to it, carry it, shoot while holding it---but it still isn't the same as on my belt/in my pocket. One problem here is that "storage" isn't how 5.2.4 is stated. It is stated as "carried"...which is where I think the problem lies, as we do indeed carry magazines in our hands. 5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). I still think that once it is in my hand, we have a different situation. (And yes, discussing it here doesn't solve the problem, and yes, I'm asking my Area director about this. I hope other people are also.) I note that I don't think the IPSC version of the rules solves the problem. Again---on a regular stage (not a table start), if I pull a magazine and happen to do something else while the mag is in my hand, I don't want to be kicked to Open just because I wasn't holding my hand behind my hipbone.

Quite true. Which is why I said these specific people (what, Sevigny doesn't know the rules?), plus the rest of the squad of high-level shooters, plus the ROs and CROs on the stage, plus the large group of shooters watching---none of them found a problem with this? Doesn't that rather support my point, that we need a ruling promulgated, because obviously plenty of people _don't_ know/understand this situation? sperman said: Exactly. Contact your Area directors, and ask them about this---because I'm thinking _lots_ of people don't understand this situation.

My main problem is that I've never thought of my hands as "equipment" before---so the idea that manipulating magazines and such is governed by _equipment placement_ rules makes little sense to me. And apparently I'm not the only one. DNROI made a comment of "Just because you see someone do it, even GM's, doesn't mean it is allowed, if people are confused about this, that would mean that some of the RO's are as well." The problem with this is that it doesn't really seem to be just "some" people. I've included link to a video from the 2009 Area 3 Championships. It shows a brief clip of M. Seeklander and D. Sevigny each holding a magazine in their hand while shooting and moving. I'm not showing this to complain or say they cheated or didn't deserve how they placed----the thing everyone should take from this is simple: These are top-level competitors who know the rules, and part of their job is to win---following the rules. They thought it was perfectly legal. Not only that, but the rest of that squad (most of the rest of the high-level Production shooters) thought it was perfectly legal. So did the ROs and CRO on that stage. (Obviously, particularly because multiple shooters did exactly the same thing.) So did everyone watching---which was quite a few people, as this squad had a number of GMs, and it drew a lot of on-lookers. I'm thinking that most people don't think that hands are "equipment" and thus once you have a magazine "in-hand," the retention/carrying/holding requirements of 5.2.4 no longer apply. I'm not arguing this is right or wrong (and from DNROI's latest email to me, it is apparently wrong) I'm simply saying in my opinion the vast majority of people think this way. As such, I strongly suggest that everyone contact their Area Directors to get a BoD clarification of this. Right now, my understanding of JA's opinion is that things like that aren't legal---so I'm going to shoot stages, and run stages, according to that. And yet, I'm betting that most people _don't_ think that---so what happens if someone on my squad shoots while holding a mag after I've shot it in a way that took more time due to not being able to do the same? Do I say something and get them kicked to Open? Do I keep my mouth shut and just deal with the fact that I could have done it differently but didn't since I thought we couldn't? What if I'm the CRO on a stage, and have to tell a good Production shooter that hands are equipment, and as they've just run the stage with a mag forward of the hipbone, they are now in Open? I'm not really that thrilled about any of the above choices. I think the BoD needs to have something published regarding this---one way or another. I must admit, I think that categorizing hands as equipment makes no sense, and I'd prefer the ruling to go that way---but that is only my opinion, and we all know how much that means. No matter what, though---if the ruling is indeed exactly as DNROI has stated it through email, then I'm thinking most people don't know that, and it needs to be announced.

...and apparently the answer is yes, they should have been moved to Open. I emailed DNROI again, because I didn't understand the (to my mind) apparent conflict between his email to me, and his email to Mr. Stevens. Here is the complete text of his response, including what I originally wrote to him. (Including my apology to him since I posted his first response before I asked permission, which was stupid of me.) DNROI wrote, in response to my email (which is copied below his response): So---apparently if you are in Production or Singlestack divisions, if you do anything other than reload immediately with a magazine in your hand in front of your hipbone, you are going to Open. That's my current level of understanding, at least. Anyone else read it differently? (I note also that Mr. Stevens was right---it is all about the Production/SS equipment requirements. I've just never thought of my hands as "equipment" before.)

If you want to see an example of "snarky", go back and read your original question to Amidon. Gary was trying to be helpful and merely giving his opinion. He is entitled to his opinion just as you are. Hm. I've read my original question to Amidon several times, as have several other people. I'm not sure where any sort of attitude appears. If it comes across that way, please PM me and let me know where it happens so I can moderate my writing. I don't have any problem with Mr. Steven's opinions. I don't know him, but I assume that since he is the A5 director, he has a lot of experience with USPSA and knows the rules. I don't recall saying anything about his knowledge base. He made statements based on Amidon's response to him. I questioned the situation that he presented, because I didn't understand it. He then said "All of this is pretty easy to understand if you understand the rules of SS and Production equipment placement." ---and yet, it is obvious that based on the many responses to this thread, that it _isn't_ easy to understand. His phrasing seemed personal, not general. So I said, "I'm going to act as if you weren't really meaning to be quite as snarky as that sounded." ---as I said, I don't know Mr. Stevens, so I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. If you don't know someone, you can only base you opinion on what they are writing, not how "they would have said/meant it." If he isn't ever like that (which several people have said) then it isn't a problem. My questions in later posts, were simply that---questions based on the situation. If he took them as personal arguments, I certainly did not mean them to come across that way. I made that list of situations because I think that this "mag in the hand" thing is going to be a real problem, one that most people apparently don't understand. My list was made in the hope that someone could explain how this is going to work to me, because I thought I understood the situation up until Mr. Amidon's second response, after which I don't get it at all. I've seen many people hold a mag while moving and shooting. (Including a number of Production GMs.) Based on the way this discussion has gone, those people should have been moved to Open division for doing so? I think this will be a surprise to them, and I'd certainly like to clearly understand what is and isn't allowed before I head to my first major in June.

I'm actually serious about that last set of questions--for Production/SS shooters, if you have a magazine in your hand and the only way to do that legally is to either 1) be directly in the process of reloading or 2) have the hand behind your hip---again, how are we going to start calling this as ROs? My above list: ...is actually serious. How many of those are not legal with this new understanding of what is allowed for hand carry? Seems to me that all are against the rules except for the last one! And that doesn't even count having a mag in the hand clasped to the gun while shooting two-handed. I've seen Production GMs do that a number of times. Is that now against the rules? Is this how it is going to be? For Production/SS shooters, if you have a magazine in your hand, the only way to do that legally is to either 1) be directly in the process of reloading or 2) have the hand behind your hip.

And, because I have some free time, here's some examples: In Production/SS division: I pick up a mag, and move to a new spot before putting it in a mag pouch. That legal? As someone else has said---I start to reload, have the new mag in my hand, take one last close-up shot SHO, then perform my reload---that legal? I grab two mags from a table start, stuff them in my mag pouches, grab my gun, load it, and grab one last mag as I start running. When I get to my first shooting position, I finally get the mag into the pouch. Is that legal? I drop the mag from the gun, grab a new mag, run to a new position, put the new mag in the gun as I reach the new position. That legal? How about one from the DoubleTap last year? Empty gun is in one place. Mags are in another. I go grab some mags, place one into a pouch as I run, then load the other into the firearm once I get there. Is that legal? Or do I need to put them both into pouches, THEN pull one back out to load? Do I have to make sure they are both fully in pouches before I actually start moving? Or perhaps put one into a pouch, and then run with one hand behind my back carrying the magazine. How's that? That legal? I note that up until the last two sentences, the newest opinion makes all those situations against the rules. DNROI's previous email had clear obvious rules to follow. The newest one---doesn't. As an RO, do I start penalizing people on the third step? Or the second? Start timing how early they pull a mag to reload? When do we go from "pulling a mag to reload" to "pulling a mag to carry it ready"? Don't tell me "use common sense" --- because you can only use common sense in situations where the rule itself makes sense.

Thank you, I'm quite conversant with the rules of SS and Production equipment placement. I'm going to act as if you weren't really meaning to be quite as snarky as that sounded. The problem here is that makes no difference to carrying magazines in the hand. After all, 5.2.4 is clear: During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). You'll note that there is NO provision for carrying in the hand---every division has a device or pocket requirement. If there IS somewhere a rule regarding hand carry, I'd like to see it. So---either we follow 5.2.4, and everyone must use retention devices or apparel pockets, regardless of division, or there is something about hand carry that makes it different. If it IS different, then stipulating hand carry positions based on a requirement for something already defined as different is ridiculous. If it ISN'T different---then it doesn't matter what division you are shooting. Sorry, but L/L10/O divisions don't get a free pass on 5.2.4 by adding a oh, we mean hand carry also when we say "retention device attached to the competitor's belt" or "apparel pocket" so they can carry however they'd like, but the Prod/SS shooters have to have one hand behind their hip. Either hand carry is a different situation, or it isn't. DNROI's original response: ...seemed clear---hand carry was something different from belt carry. The followup makes it seem not---and yet, you don't get to have it halfway. Either hand carry is a different case, whereupon division-specific belt-equipment placement rules don't apply (because we aren't talking about equipment on a belt), or it IS the same case, whereupon 5.2.4 applies, and no one gets to do it.

Even better, it just occurred to me that it the gun starts on a table a distance away, unloaded start, a Production/SS guy can't pull a mag on the way to their firearm. After all, that is movement without the mag being behind the hip, and if you don't have a gun, you can't be reloading, now can you? This is ridiculous.

This could really benefit from an official NROI ruling. No kidding. The part I have bolded above REALLY seems to contradict what he said earlier...which was: That was in direct response to my question about having a magazine in your hand as you move and shoot through a course of fire. In addition, his later comment seemed to directly say that in a course of fire, you can take the magazine out of your pouch at any time and hold it in your hand as you move and shoot: This new response seems to directly contradict that. Now I really hope NROI makes an official response to this, because at the moment I see full and complete arguments in both directions---and arb results being---arbitrary. [sigh] And I was feeling so good about understanding before. So where are we going to draw the line about how much movement you can make while reloading? If my reload takes five steps (and if I fumble it, it sometimes does) does that mean I'm now acting against the rules? How about six steps? Am I going to have to stop and be behind cover to reload? (Okay, that was a cheap shot.) I really don't understand this response compared to his original one---nor do I understand why division would make any difference. His response implies that for hand carry, Production/SS is different from the others---so does this mean that Limited/Open/L10 guys can carry the mag in a hand and shoot to their heart's content, but Prod/SS guys can't unless they have one hand behind their back? I realize we've handicapped Prod/SS shooters in the past, but this seems more blatant than normal. (edited because I hit "submit" accidentally and early)

Oh sure, I take the time to blather on and on, and you just succinctly make an excellent summary. [sigh]

This is precisely it. There really are two separate topics going on here---one has to do with magazines starting in a legal place, and the other has to do with where magazines may be stored on your person. And here it is---the "front pocket" is against certain division requirements under any circumstances during the course of fire. Picking magazines up in your hands from a legal start position is perfectly fine. (Including moving and/or shooting with extra magazines in your hands.) I'm not sure this is necessarily true---one would assume that since the GMs know about this possibility (after all, we've seen them on occasion shoot while holding a magazine in one hand) if it was actually a competitive advantage, they would be doing it all the time on sections of courses with short targets. And yet, they aren't. I know that I can be almost as accurate and almost as fast on relatively near targets shooting two-handed while holding a magazine. In certain cases (for example, when I _don't_ have the mags on my belt, and would have to pick them up from barrels) that decrease is worth it if the targets are close, compared to having to take the time to stow an additional mag on my belt before I could start shooting. That being said, most of the time the course of fire is such that it just isn't worth it. This is separate from whether or not it is legal, by the way. It is always legal. (Hm. I should have put this part at the bottom of my post, to keep it separate. Ah well.) ....as long as you are either holding them in your hands, or have stored them in approved retention devices. Or, if I recall correctly, you can actually fling them downrange to where you want them to be, and pick them up later in the course of fire. I have no idea on the "in the mouth" or "in the armpit" methods of carry. I've cut out almost all of the parts regarding the Great Front Pocket Barney Debate, because whether we like it or not, those are the rules.

Precisely. The magazines all start wherever they are supposed to, according the rulebook and WSB. (Whether table, in mag pouch, barrel---whatever.) After the start signal, unless the WSB specifically disallows it (for example, stage 2 at the 2010 Prod Nats disallowed it--I remember it clearly, for very unfortunate reasons) if you want to take all of your mags and carry them in your hands as you move and shoot through the course of fire, you may. So, in answer to: If you have to move: the mags can be in the gun, in your (correctly positioned) mag pouches, in your hands as long as the WSB does not specifically disallow it, or left on the table.

Yep. Just how I felt, too. Received his email reply 4:58 pm today. I plan on keeping a copy with me. (Yes, I know his email ISN'T an official ruling. However, his phrasing of "there is nothing that states when you can or cannot remove them to use as you travel through the COF" is a rather good argument, isn't it? Along with the "it is Freestyle after all". Did anyone else hear the unvoiced "Duh!" from him at that part?)

Not really, at least if there are over 49 people in a particular division for an Area match. The full slot policy is here: http://www.uspsa-nationals.org/Slot_policy_adopted_11-2010.pdf Here is a brief excerpt: "If an area championship division has at least 50 but no more than 99 competitors, that division will receive slots for: • First overall • First in class (M-D) • Top woman • Top junior • Top senior • Top super senior. If an area championship division has 100 or more competitors that division will receive slots for: • First and second overall • First and second in class (M-D) • Top woman • Top junior • Top senior • Top super senior" ....so there are a lot more chances to receive a slot just at a regular Area match. Add to that the fact that slots can be gained from several different places: "Slots to the USPSA National Championship Matches are allocated as follows: • Returning Champions (see page 2) • Area Championships (see page 3) • Area Director Slots (see page 5) • Clubs/Sections (see page 5) • President’s Discretion (see page 5) • Wait List (see page 6)" ...so as you see from the policy, slots occur all over the place. Many, many people get them from the waitlist. If I recall correctly, someone has also said that no one who has turned up to shoot has been turned away, either. I'm staying away from the rest of this discussion, because I don't care but I thought I'd at least make it clear that it really _isn't_ an exclusive sort of thing. If you want to go, there's a way. (Unlike your fencing nationals, where you have to be in the top 25%. To get a slot to the USPSA Nationals, you can be first D at an Area match. Or get one from your Sectional Coordinator. Or get one from the waitlist.) Just sayin'. If the participation isn't huge, it isn't because people were denied a chance at it.

I've been reading this with some bemusement, because prior to this discussion, it had never occurred to me that carrying a magazine while moving or shooting would be in any way against the rules unless it was specifically disallowed by the WSB. Among other things, I have that attitude partially because I clearly recall the Area 3 match a couple of years ago wherein the entire Production Super Squad (who had a tabletop empty start, with all mags starting on barrels/table) ran around with one in the gun and one in their hand clasped to the gun shooting 2-handed instead of taking the time to stuff one in a mag pouch. Anyway....after reading how some people really _would_ apparently call that as against the rules, I wrote DNROI regarding this situation. His response seemed rather bemused that it would be a problem, or that it would in any way be against the rules. (That may be my projection upon his response, though.) Here is what he said: I wrote: ....to which he replied: It seems clear to me that you can indeed move and shoot through a course of fire even if you have a magazine in your hand as long as this is not specifically disallowed by the WSB. (Obviously the mag had to start in a legal position.) Between "If the competitor wishes to put themselves at a potential disadvantage by carrying their next reload in their hands on those stages with staged mags, let them, it is "Freestyle after all": and "there is nothing that states when you can or cannot remove them to use as you travel through the COF" it seems straightforward to me. I know that prior to this discussion, unless specifically prohibited by the WSB, it would not have occurred to me to consider it against the rules. After reading this, upon reflection, and with DNROI's response in mind, I am going to retain that opinion as I work matches.