Reload without allowing muzzle over the berm

[Skydiver]

The club's BOD is happy to support the sport by allowing us to hold matches, but they are not about to check if their decisions are o.k. with USPSA.....

Right. And if the club's BOD issues a decision counter to the USPSA rulebook, the USPSA MD has 2 choices; stop holding USPSA matches altogether or hold unsanctioned matches that are USPSA-like.

They haven't issued a decision yet that runs counter to the rule book.....

They don't have an agreement with USPSA -- I and nine others did when we re-affiliated in 2003; at this point my replacement signs that document each year. The match happens at that club, because I, and now my replacement, petition the club for use of their ranges -- which they grant. That's not an unrestricted grant though -- they do expect us to clean up after ourselves, make sure that the non-club members have left the facility before we go or are registered as a member's guests, that we report on match income and expenses, etc.

Two separate organizations -- the USPSA match that runs according to the rulebook and the hosting club that retains independent property rights.....

Once again, if a club wants to throw additional rules on top of USPSA rules, they either need USPSA pres approval or they are NOT USPSA matches. I don't know how to explain it any clearer than what the rulebook already says.

3.3 Applicability of Rules:

USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline. Host organizations

may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal

precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not

in compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without

the express consent of the President of USPSA.

Just playing devil's advocate: There is no rule in rule book that a competitor must pay the match fee, or sign a club's waiver in order to compete. So you can say that there is already a "local rules" in place there. Somebody really devious could put a line in the waiver to says that they agree not to point the muzzle over the berm otherwise forfeit the match and their match fee.

But back on topic, yes, 3.3 says that a club must get USPSA's President's approval in order to institute a local rule.

[JThompson]

I spoke with the club prez about this at length. What it came down to is the chance of losing a club or USPSA rules. I'll tell you what I told him. Run it as an outlaw match with USPSA safety rules and add on that the muzzle can't point over the berm. If I can see a house over a berm then it's not safe to have a loaded gun pointed that way.

It is what it is and I respect his decision on this. You can bet it was not made lightly, I know we talked for an hour and I wasn't the first he spoke with.

It sucks to lose USPSA, but the prez has to look at preserving the club, not just one sport..

Know your target and what is beyond.

Be absolutely sure you have identified your target beyond any doubt. Equally important, be aware of the area beyond your target. This means observing your prospective area of fire before you shoot. Never fire in a direction in which there are people or any other potential for mishap. Think first. Shoot second.

Sounds like a good idea to me.... What if it was your house over the berm and your kids were in it.... how would you feel about it then?

JT

Edited December 27, 2011 by JThompson

[mikegot38]

must remember one bullet over a berm has a good chance of hitting someone. Local Amish girl killed a few days ago in her buggy by a person discharging a muzzleloader into the air over a mile away.We must do what is nessesary to prevent over the berm accidents from happening. If that is a rule change then so be it.

As I recall, the person was arrested as a result of the .306 round hitting the house after he missed a deer. As I further recall, the woman who was struck was severely injured but not killed. The defendant however acted like a jerk on TV.

MPG, Esq

[kpbaer]

The one I was referring to was in Ohio,and she was killed, hit in the head. Thought it was more Local.

[Nik Habicht]

The club's BOD is happy to support the sport by allowing us to hold matches, but they are not about to check if their decisions are o.k. with USPSA.....

Right. And if the club's BOD issues a decision counter to the USPSA rulebook, the USPSA MD has 2 choices; stop holding USPSA matches altogether or hold unsanctioned matches that are USPSA-like.

They haven't issued a decision yet that runs counter to the rule book.....

They don't have an agreement with USPSA -- I and nine others did when we re-affiliated in 2003; at this point my replacement signs that document each year. The match happens at that club, because I, and now my replacement, petition the club for use of their ranges -- which they grant. That's not an unrestricted grant though -- they do expect us to clean up after ourselves, make sure that the non-club members have left the facility before we go or are registered as a member's guests, that we report on match income and expenses, etc.

Two separate organizations -- the USPSA match that runs according to the rulebook and the hosting club that retains independent property rights.....

Once again, if a club wants to throw additional rules on top of USPSA rules, they either need USPSA pres approval or they are NOT USPSA matches. I don't know how to explain it any clearer than what the rulebook already says.

3.3 Applicability of Rules:

USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline. Host organizations

may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal

precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not

in compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without

the express consent of the President of USPSA.

I've read that several times. The USPSA match at Central Jersey (MID-01) is in full compliance with 3.3, and with 6.4.4/6.4.5.

There is no issue there.....

[Chuck Anderson]

Sorry to have been away from this for awhile. I've been busy on another thread. This is not a situation that USPSA has ignored or is not taking seriously. We have discussed it more than once since I've been on the BOD. Just because we don't agree that allowing local rules is in the best interests for the sport does not mean we haven't considered it.

The most recent club I spoke with regarding this had some concerns. We didn't just say, it's USPSA or the Highway and tell them to pound sand. We pointed to the safety track record, the fact that a round over the berm is already a DQ, reloading with the finger in the triggerguard is already a DQ. We gave them our concerns about how difficult it would be to enforce and other likely concerns that would come up. Then offered assistance with obtaining grants for range improvements that could alleviate concerns such as raising berms or adding baffles. These have been successful in other venues.

The hitch is this is only one of several things that people who don't like USPSA will use to dismantle the sport. Moving, drawing, shooting too darn fast, and reloading. Things that make this sport what it is. Allowing individual clubs to pick and choose what elements of the sport they like and don't like will not end well.

For the folks that think it's easy to just not reload pointing over the berm. I shot a rifle match a couple weeks ago at my home range. They have a rule about reloading with the muzzle over the berm. (Not USPSA) None of the three stages required a reload, but every dang time I loaded the rifle to start I got a warning about my muzzle. And I was trying to comply. It's just thousands of reps have made that an unconscious action, just like taking my finger off the trigger when moving or loading. It's interesting that there are some people complaining (and rightly so I believe) about having to change out their Production trigger because they invested $100.00 in it, but they would be okay with invalidating hundreds of hours of training.

As for the legal aspects of launching a round out of a range. It would be bad, no question. Any ND carries with it horrible possible consequences. But to immediately assume it would be the end of the range is nothing more than claiming the sky is falling. It might, or it might not. If it does, I really don't know what the legal consequences would be. No one really does. A good lawyer on either side could certainly make the case for or against negligence. My feeling is that our rules do an excellent job when it comes to safety. Is there anyone that can say that something bad would happen if the rules are actually followed? Setting up the argument that if someone violated this rule, then this rule, then a 1/100,000 shot happened something bad could happen would result in the end of our sport. If a shooter was doing an up range start, then drew facing uprange, then tripped and had an ND while turning because his finger was on the trigger and fired a round that landed in an orphanage a mile away is not a reason to ban uprange starts.

[JThompson]

I also gave him the option of no blue sky. The bottom line is people need to make the decision based on their set of circumstances. They have decided that having a loaded gun pointed at a house is not acceptable. Having only had it described to me I agree with that assesment.

That's the bottom line, their only other option is outlaw or nothing.

JT

[Chuck Anderson]

I also gave him the option of no blue sky. The bottom line is people need to make the decision based on their set of circumstances. They have decided that having a loaded gun pointed at a house is not acceptable. Having only had it described to me I agree with that assesment.

That's the bottom line, their only other option is outlaw or nothing.

JT

If they have houses visible downrange of the shooting area, that range will be shut down soon anyway. I wouldn't shoot there, even if it was legal. I also agree with the assessment that it's not safe to shoot with the muzzle over the berm, but it's not safe for any range related activity. I would mention to the club if they are planning to go outlaw that there are benefits to having rules in line with a Nationally recognized organization. Benefits that if they go Outlaw will probably be held against them if there is a problem.

[remoandiris]

I've read that several times. The USPSA match at Central Jersey (MID-01) is in full compliance with 3.3, and with 6.4.4/6.4.5.

There is no issue there.....

Good to know any of us could shoot a match at that club and not have to worry about local rules unless they've been approved by the USPSA prez. If by citing 6.4.4 you're implying allowing the muzzle to point over a berm while reloading is unsafe and worthy of a ban, you're wrong.

Edited December 27, 2011 by remoandiris

[remoandiris]

Know your target and what is beyond.

Be absolutely sure you have identified your target beyond any doubt. Equally important, be aware of the area beyond your target. This means observing your prospective area of fire before you shoot. Never fire in a direction in which there are people or any other potential for mishap. Think first. Shoot second.

And there is the rub. Do you know what is a half mile beyond the berm? A mile?

What is beyond my "target" IS the berm. I'm not aiming at a target when I'm reloading. I don't know of anyone who aims and reloads at the same time. Each action is independent of the other.

[JThompson]

Know your target and what is beyond.

Be absolutely sure you have identified your target beyond any doubt. Equally important, be aware of the area beyond your target. This means observing your prospective area of fire before you shoot. Never fire in a direction in which there are people or any other potential for mishap. Think first. Shoot second.

And there is the rub. Do you know what is a half mile beyond the berm? A mile?

What is beyond my "target" IS the berm. I'm not aiming at a target when I'm reloading. I don't know of anyone who aims and reloads at the same time. Each action is independent of the other.

Hey bud, I understand, I'm a GM and know the drill. We have a DQ at almost every major where one goes over the berm. Usually a couple...

Yes, I do know what is beyond at every place I shoot and there is a well known range that has houses over the berm. They were even shooting rearward falling poppers that could launch one right over there. Scared me so bad I decided not to shoot the match and went home.

Do you point at your family when you are home even if the gun is unloaded? OF course not, so how is it okay to point at someone else s with a loaded one?

We have a great record in the USPSA, but there are some clubs that either need to make improvements or not shoot USPSA. That is good for both the club and USPSA, because I can damn guarantee if clubs (already on the fence) hear of a huge lawsuit or some neighbor getting popped we will lose more than one club to this.

We shoot indoors and had one go off the baffles just last Thursday. No harm because the baffles were there to catch it, but if they hadn't been?? Who knows, To me, it's not worth the risk from several points of view.

I sit on our board, so I know this is a tough one for all concerned.

JT

Edited December 27, 2011 by JThompson

[remoandiris]

Do you point at your family when you are home even if the gun is unloaded? OF course not, so how is it okay to point at someone else s with a loaded one?

Sorry, but this reads like a faulty analogy to me. Unless you think a round will go off on it's own with no help from the trigger/hammer/firing pin.

make improvements

I'm working on this. I don't care to shoot at indoor ranges. Turning an outdoor range into an indoor range is not something I'd care to do. But if it's the only game in town, you do what you gotta do.

One thing that REALLY amazes me about some BOD members of my club...they have no issues with sub guns in general and driving down steel in particular, yet see USPSA as a potential problem.

I should have stayed in Prod. At least then I wouldn't have a few grand worth of guns and gear tied up in this. Someone else could pick up the torch, baton, whatever, and I could take up fishing.

Edited December 27, 2011 by remoandiris

[konkapot]

We are spending a lot of time trying to be logical and think our way through this issue.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of folks who just don't like what we do. Some are anti-gunners, some are the classic stodgy old-time club board members.

The muzzle over the berm thing is the latest red herring. The "they shoot at targets with HEADS!" thing comes up from time to time. Another classic is "they run with guns!" I got screamed at during a practice session for shooting "that automatic pistol!" and was told that "rapid fire is illegal."

Unfortunately, we end up chasing our tail hoping that if we play nice and appease these people we'll be left alone.

The end result ultimately is that we'll have matches where we shoot one round at a paper plate, unload and show clear. Or maybe airsoft.

Folks/board members go after us because they want to, not for any substantive reason.

FY42385

[Skydiver]

We are spending a lot of time trying to be logical and think our way through this issue.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of folks who just don't like what we do. Some are anti-gunners, some are the classic stodgy old-time club board members.

The muzzle over the berm thing is the latest red herring. The "they shoot at targets with HEADS!" thing comes up from time to time. Another classic is "they run with guns!" I got screamed at during a practice session for shooting "that automatic pistol!" and was told that "rapid fire is illegal."

Unfortunately, we end up chasing our tail hoping that if we play nice and appease these people we'll be left alone.

The end result ultimately is that we'll have matches where we shoot one round at a paper plate, unload and show clear. Or maybe airsoft.

Folks/board members go after us because they want to, not for any substantive reason.

FY42385

+1

The next time a club hosts a .22 silhouette match that is presumably sponsored by the the stodgy old time club board members who like stand and shoot games, and the shooters raise the rifle muzzle over the berm while they put in a magazine, remind them that it's illegal to reload with the muzzle pointing over the berm.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Skydiver

[Chills1994]

I didn't read all 5 pages of posts...

It would be nice if...and it is a big IF ....USPSA could look into or work with other organizations like the NSSF and NRA to push for states to pass range protection laws.

Not to get all political, but....

first they tried to limit guns...

then they tried and are still trying to make getting ammo and shooting ammo a hassle and expensive (leveraging OSHA and EPA rules to say ban WalMart from selling ammo)

the next card up their sleeve is to go after ranges...either through suburban encroachment, the "OHH NOOEESS! bullets have lead in them" and pollute the ground water, or the "guns are loud and might scare city slickers who come to that state park" argument.

The thing with the old stodgy curmodgeons at the ranges...in ten or 15 years, they'll all be dead. we'll just out live them.

it sounds like so much a soap opera and "monkeys splashing water". they don't have enough drama in their lives so they gotta make some.

[West Texas Granny]

All I can say is if a round went over the berm at my local outdoor range and injured someone the best that could be hoped for is that the range remains open to law enforcement and security firms. The public though would in all likelihood be denied access. The problem is knee jerk reaction which is local governments respond to issues such as this. Such an instance can force the closing of the range and bankruptcy if it's a privately owned range. If its a public range closing is but a formality especially in developed areas as such open land would best serve the development community and the public entity's tax base best. USPSA needs to understand this and allow some flexibility.

[Skydiver]

All I can say is if a round went over the berm at my local outdoor range and injured someone the best that could be hoped for is that the range remains open to law enforcement and security firms. The public though would in all likelihood be denied access. The problem is knee jerk reaction which is local governments respond to issues such as this. Such an instance can force the closing of the range and bankruptcy if it's a privately owned range. If its a public range closing is but a formality especially in developed areas as such open land would best serve the development community and the public entity's tax base best. USPSA needs to understand this and allow some flexibility.

Unfortunately, a few years ago there was a rash of bullets leaving the range in some of the local ranges. The odd thing was that the times/days when the bullets were reported as leaving the range was when LE had rented the range for their exclusive use for training. Funny how it's still the range that has to fight off the litigation from these incidents.

[Chills1994]

JThompson wrote:

They were even shooting rearward falling poppers that could launch one right over there.

Hmmnn...didn't somebody take high speed film footage of steel hitting poppers?

Or was it just stationary/static targets?

Me? Personally? I think the danger from rearward falling poppers is over-hyped.

But that is just my opinion....and I'm probably wrong.

[JThompson]

Actually they are fine if only shot once... the problem is when you shoot them as they are falling. If the angle is right you they can skip like a stone on water.

[Chills1994]

somebody somewhere wrote:

...no blue sky range....

The one club I am a life member to went that route when they built their range. Clark Vargas designed the whole sha-bang.

According to my club prez, each baffle was $10,000.

Yeah, seriously, that is what he told me $10K.

You can see a satellite image of the range here:

http://maps.yahoo.com/#q=Mascoutah%2C+IL&conf=1&start=1&lat=38.51843886566787&lon=-89.81885969638824&zoom=19&mvt=s&trf=0

That's 150 large just in wooden baffles...

How many clubs have those kinda deep pockets to pay for something like that?

According to Clark Vargas we could start having USPSA/IDPA matches out there but stay back something like 15 yards from the back berm, but the club leadership is still worried about impending eminent domain litigation.

major thread drift ahead....

I could swear I saw a documentary one time about a kid who had got shot in the head at a range. There was a club house building of sorts just on the other side of a back berm. In the bay, there was an "Ip-sick" match going on. Somebody fired a shot say like while reloading.... or their gun had doubled. The bullet (boolit?) went through a wooden baffle, through the wall of the club house attic, down through the ceiling, and hit the kid, a teenager I think, right in the head and killed him.

This documentary aired back in the 1990's, I'm pretty sure.

IIRC, they traced whose gun it was because of the Rooster red boolit lube still left in the groove of the boolit.

The kid's father was a state trooper. I remember some expert witnesses were brought in who could do the computer modeling/animation at the time showing how the bullet passed through the baffle, through the attic and struck the kid in the head.

Lawsuit wise I'd be curious who all the kid's father brought into court.???

[JKSNIPER]

As a former active duty LEO I cringe to see this but skydiver is correct.

We have overhead cover on two of the ranges at my old depts range facility and it would amaze me to see where the holes from fired rounds were. "how did that hole get all the way up there...in THAT spot?"

I would look at some of them and then try and imagine where the person was standing and how they would have had to have been holding their weapon in order for it to fire and hit that spot and some of them would have required some creative handgun yoga.

However a lot of depts share their ranges with other agencies.....some good ....some not so good.

My old pd shared the range with so many outside agencies that when we wanted to do some training there it was not unusual to find all the ranges in use and by outside agencies.

Very frustrating.

One time I went there and while in conversation with this agencies "instructor" and I use the term loosely this guy had targets stapled to the wood which stood below the bottom edge of the targets. We were standing at the 10 yard line and his shooters (about 10-15 guys/gals) were getting ready to move back to the 15 yard line.

Every target stapled below the edge of the target they were supposed to be shooting at had AT LEAST 4 or 5 holes in them. I suspected but had to ask their "instructor" and he said "I did that so they could see when they're hitting the wood." and they weren't even 30 feet from the targets.

HE asked if I wanted to stay and watch and I said "No thanks ...gotta run." and got the heck out of there. Talking later to a friend assigned to the range staff for my agency about this group and he said they were probably the single worst group skill wise he had ever seen.

Their instructor was chosen to be the instructor because he was their best shot. Our qual course most people here would laugh at and could score max score (300) in their sleep. I shot it in a snowstorm with snow sticking to the targets and shot a 300.

Their instructor was made an instructor shooting our qual course with a 190..... Which, in case you were wondering, is a failing score. 210 is passing.

We had one of the old range instructor's a few years back shoot our qual course one time BLINDFOLDED and he shot a qualifying score.

He went to each stage...centered himself on the target....did a couple practice draws...then put the blindfold on and another guy ran him through the COF.

He did it to show that our course was too easy and should be harder. Chiefs looked at it...commented on his showboating and left. Course stayed the same.

WTG LEO status means NOTHING as far as skill with firearms goes. I know a BUNCH of guys IN SWAT who NEVER shoot unless they're TOLD to.

Most cops nowadays are NOT "gun guys". Its not like when I first came on the job when there were a LOT more gun guys and military veterans. My class had 5 vets if you count the guy who was in the coast guard and our class was 80 people.

Since then the # of vets has shrunk...although it may go back up due to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan but even so most cops carry the gun and only shoot it when they're scheduled for range training.

Don't assume skill just cos the guy wears a badge.

If a range has closure imminent due to rounds leaving the range IMHO it will close irregardless of who's going to be shooting there.

Lets hope that people get sense about the small # of incidents of rounds leaving ranges but don't expect it to be so.

JK

[joseywales]

major thread drift ahead....

I could swear I saw a documentary one time about a kid who had got shot in the head at a range. There was a club house building of sorts just on the other side of a back berm. In the bay, there was an "Ip-sick" match going on. Somebody fired a shot say like while reloading.... or their gun had doubled. The bullet (boolit?) went through a wooden baffle, through the wall of the club house attic, down through the ceiling, and hit the kid, a teenager I think, right in the head and killed him.

This documentary aired back in the 1990's, I'm pretty sure.

IIRC, they traced whose gun it was because of the Rooster red boolit lube still left in the groove of the boolit.

The kid's father was a state trooper. I remember some expert witnesses were brought in who could do the computer modeling/animation at the time showing how the bullet passed through the baffle, through the attic and struck the kid in the head.

Lawsuit wise I'd be curious who all the kid's father brought into court.???

Dallas Pistol Club - in the late 1980's (I think), long before I even knew it existed (it's my home practice range).

I remember seeing that documentary too - I can't find any reference to it on the internet. Not sure who produced it - maybe Discovery or PBS.

My understanding is that the lawyers named EVERYONE on the board of directors along with others.

To hear some of the folks who were sued - if you had any insurance coverage - you were named.

This range used to hold USPSA matches. After all that dust settled...never again. The particular bays from which that shot was fired are no longer used.

To align back with this thread - there are signs on every concrete berm wall - "Muzzle must not point above dirt berm" - policy went into effect 3 years ago.

The range is bordered by soccer fields to the west, industrial to the east and south. North is the only direction we can shoot.

The club BOD is fearful of a round getting out of the range and shutting the whole place down.

[Chills1994]

Actually they are fine if only shot once... the problem is when you shoot them as they are falling. If the angle is right you they can skip like a stone on water.

At first blush, yeah, that makes sense, but has anybody ever tried to capture it on film...maybe with tracers...at some range where there is nothing but dirt, rocks, yucca plants, and rattle snakes beyond what would be the back berm.

Could one figure out how much energy this "skipping" bullet has?

slight thread drift on...

back in my Air Force days when I actually got to play with stuff like the M249 SAW, the M60 machine gun, and the Ma Deuce, firing at used APC's, tanks, whatever, yeah you could sometimes see a tracer bullet skip like almost straight up into the sky. But we are talking say like a 147 grain pro jo at 3,000 fps, or whatever the M2 shoots...a 600 or 700 something grain bullet at, I think, well over 3,000 fps.

and none of the stuff out there was balanced or hinged to fall backwards. once it was down, nobody was going out there to set it back up.

[Chills1994]

major thread drift ahead....

I could swear I saw a documentary one time about a kid who had got shot in the head at a range. There was a club house building of sorts just on the other side of a back berm. In the bay, there was an "Ip-sick" match going on. Somebody fired a shot say like while reloading.... or their gun had doubled. The bullet (boolit?) went through a wooden baffle, through the wall of the club house attic, down through the ceiling, and hit the kid, a teenager I think, right in the head and killed him.

This documentary aired back in the 1990's, I'm pretty sure.

IIRC, they traced whose gun it was because of the Rooster red boolit lube still left in the groove of the boolit.

The kid's father was a state trooper. I remember some expert witnesses were brought in who could do the computer modeling/animation at the time showing how the bullet passed through the baffle, through the attic and struck the kid in the head.

Lawsuit wise I'd be curious who all the kid's father brought into court.???

Dallas Pistol Club - in the late 1980's (I think), long before I even knew it existed (it's my home practice range).

I remember seeing that documentary too - I can't find any reference to it on the internet. Not sure who produced it - maybe Discovery or PBS.

My understanding is that the lawyers named EVERYONE on the board of directors along with others.

To hear some of the folks who were sued - if you had any insurance coverage - you were named.

This range used to hold USPSA matches. After all that dust settled...never again. The particular bays from which that shot was fired are no longer used.

To align back with this thread - there are signs on every concrete berm wall - "Muzzle must not point above dirt berm" - policy went into effect 3 years ago.

The range is bordered by soccer fields to the west, industrial to the east and south. North is the only direction we can shoot.

The club BOD is fearful of a round getting out of the range and shutting the whole place down.

Thanks for the info above.

This is why we need range protection laws, especially over the course of suburban encroachment. If the range was built in 1965, and you moved there in 1975 and built a house a half mile behind the back berm, that should be YOUR problem. any and all liability should be grandfather'ed out on the range's behalf.

[JThompson]

Actually they are fine if only shot once... the problem is when you shoot them as they are falling. If the angle is right you they can skip like a stone on water.

At first blush, yeah, that makes sense, but has anybody ever tried to capture it on film...maybe with tracers...at some range where there is nothing but dirt, rocks, yucca plants, and rattle snakes beyond what would be the back berm.

Could one figure out how much energy this "skipping" bullet has?

slight thread drift on...

back in my Air Force days when I actually got to play with stuff like the M249 SAW, the M60 machine gun, and the Ma Deuce, firing at used APC's, tanks, whatever, yeah you could sometimes see a tracer bullet skip like almost straight up into the sky. But we are talking say like a 147 grain pro jo at 3,000 fps, or whatever the M2 shoots...a 600 or 700 something grain bullet at, I think, well over 3,000 fps.

and none of the stuff out there was balanced or hinged to fall backwards. once it was down, nobody was going out there to set it back up.

Ya, I have actually heard them leave the range. Also, we have a couple of very high berms (read 50ft) and I've seen the rounds hit 20-40 feet up when a guy was driving them down. How many ranges have berms that tall?

JT