Grip presure

[lancejoshlin]

My grip is firm,, but not crushing the gun. More like a stiff cage around the grip as opposed to crushing the grip if that makes any sense. I did test with slow mo video, that was a while back. There was such a small difference in muzzle rise that unless I'm on up close super fast arrays I don't grip super hard. Over tense and stuff was meaning body wide, not just grip.

[Jake Di Vita]

6 minutes ago, lancejoshlin said:

My grip is firm,, but not crushing the gun. More like a stiff cage around the grip as opposed to crushing the grip if that makes any sense. I did test with slow mo video, that was a while back. There was such a small difference in muzzle rise that unless I'm on up close super fast arrays I don't grip super hard. Over tense and stuff was meaning body wide, not just grip.

The small difference that you saw in muzzle rise means a lot to me. I've lost more matches than I care to remember by less than a point. If you're trying to win every tiny little bit matters. Even if it is only .01 seconds every other per split, over the course of a match like nationals, you've lost a second or more. That's a simple example and I think there are more advantages to it than that, but even that alone is more than enough to make a difference. I'm not saying that it's impossible to shoot well while relaxed, but I don't believe you'll ever maximize your abilities like that. I'm a performance whore, I want every little bit I can get. I try to pay special attention to the fundamentals, I want to do the really common simple stuff better than anyone else and I want the people I teach to strive for that as well. I think that's the best foundation to build from, so naturally that is what I'm going to coach.

Yeah, body wide my tension is not as firm as my grip, but I'm still very tight and integrated. I'm gripping the gun at probably 80% of max and I'm squeezing the rest of my body probably somewhere around 50% of max. I'm intentionally not relaxed. There's more to it than this but to make a long story short, the more relaxed someone is the more upright they'll tend to be and when they're upright and relaxed recoil tends to push them around. If I see shoulders or torso moving at all during recoil, I think that's a problem. Maybe you're a bigger guy and you can get away with being less active, but I can't operate under the assumption that being a bit softer will work for everyone when I know being firm is what the best in the world do.

[lancejoshlin]

Yeah, I wouldn't call it soft, preloaded muscles yeah, aggressive yes, I just think your giving more weight to the term relaxed than I am. The best stages Ive ever had I feel like I put a lot less effort into than a stage I've struggled with. Just feels right when you're done. I did mention that where it matters more I get a little stiffer on my grip, I'm just not crushing the grip 100% of the time on on a stage. Sort of like acceptable sight picture. You can have perfectly aligned sights on EVERY shot in a stage and shoot it clean, but there's times you don't have to have a perfect sight picture.

[Jake Di Vita]

20 minutes ago, lancejoshlin said:

Yeah, I wouldn't call it soft, preloaded muscles yeah, aggressive yes, I just think your giving more weight to the term relaxed than I am. The best stages Ive ever had I feel like I put a lot less effort into than a stage I've struggled with. Just feels right when you're done. I did mention that where it matters more I get a little stiffer on my grip, I'm just not crushing the grip 100% of the time on on a stage. Sort of like acceptable sight picture. You can have perfectly aligned sights on EVERY shot in a stage and shoot it clean, but there's times you don't have to have a perfect sight picture.

The only place I disagree is I don't think that there is anyplace where it matters more than anyplace else. The fundamentals are the same regardless of the difficulty of the target you're shooting at. Having different grip pressure for longer shots is a similar mistake to slowing down the motion of your draw on a far target. If it matters up close, it matters for everything. I'm a big believer in treating every shot the same. The problem with going by feel is the feedback isn't as reliable as it seems like it should be. I've always felt if I'm doing it right I'll know exactly how well my stage went at unload and show clear. There are lots of shooters that effectively score their run real time as it's going on, hits and time. They aren't trying to it's just a product of using the most reliable feedback we have available which in the case of shooting is our vision.

Ask yourself what benefit you get by squeezing harder "where it matters more" and then ask yourself why you don't want that benefit on the other targets?

Edited November 29, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[lancejoshlin]

Mainly because on far targets it takes a little longer to get an acceptable sight picture, and muscleing the gun at distance doesn't work as well for me as being a little more relaxed at distance. On in your face targets where I'm able to move as fast as possible and just index on the slide for those hits it's more natural to be more forceful with the gun moving at speed.

[Jake Di Vita]

13 minutes ago, lancejoshlin said:

Mainly because on far targets it takes a little longer to get an acceptable sight picture, and muscleing the gun at distance doesn't work as well for me as being a little more relaxed at distance. On in your face targets where I'm able to move as fast as possible and just index on the slide for those hits it's more natural to be more forceful with the gun moving at speed.

Is this a feeling or have you tested this on the timer? I don't experience anything like that. In fact, I've found the opposite as you. The harder I squeeze the faster my sights return to the target. I think the benefit is magnified as the target gets tougher and the splits get longer. A 10% improvement on a .15 split is obviously not as significant as a 10% improvement on a .40 split. Targets beyond 15 yards are one of the largest areas the pros separate from the pack.

[lancejoshlin]

The harder I squeeze the shakier I get, I relax ever so slightly (subconscious effort) on longer targets to help settle my sights. Regardless of my grip pressure my sights are falling back at near the same amount of time, on longer targets if I'm more relaxed in my grip my fiber optic settles quicker for fine adjustment, and finer trigger control.

[Pistolpete9]

I get that the first shot could be easier on long shots if relaxed.  Are you saying that the second shot settles in naturally on long shots even with a relaxed grip?  That's a heck of a tuned gun!  I actually grip the same regardless of distance typically, but if I was ever in need of more grip strength I feel like it would be for the longer shots.  Like Jake said, that's where a lot of difference shows up.  Most people can blast away up close just fine.

[Jake Di Vita]

What's the average time difference in your splits between the harder and hammerish squeeze on both close targets and far targets? Since I'm asking you for times, I'll provide mine. Looking at my notes when I tested this years ago I ran 400 bill drills doing all 100 of one method a day once per week for a month. 100 at 7 yards squeezing very hard, 100 at 7 yards squeezing a little less hard, 100 at 25 yards squeezing very hard, 100 at 25 yards squeezing a little less hard.

7 yards less hard I averaged 1.67 (fastest 1.52 and slowest 1.79) and shot 535 alphas, 64 charlies, 1 delta for 2933/3000 points. Average hit factor of 17.56

7 yards very hard I averaged 1.55 (fastest 1.30 and slowest 1.70) and shot 557 alphas, 43 charlies for 2957/3000. Average hit factor of 19.07.

25 yards less hard I averaged 2.74 (fastest was 2.41 and slowest 3.03) and shot 507 alphas, 78 charlies, 13 deltas, 2 misses for 2853/3000 points. Average hit factor of 10.41.

25 yards very hard I averaged 2.35 (fastest was 2.07 and slowest 2.61) and shot 532 alphas, 65 charlies, 3 deltas for 2926/3000 points. Average hit factor of 12.45.

I haven't looked at this notebook for years, I had forgotten how compelling the data was. 

[Pistolpete9]

Awesome data!!!  My question to you Jake would be, how did you incorporate gripping really hard during a long competition without wearing yourself out by the end of the day?  Or put another way, how did you make sure that you would have the amount of grip stamina needed before actually trying it out in competition?  When I try to grip super hard, I seem to have about 5 runs in me before I start to shake or tire out and my accuracy suffers horribly.

[Jake Di Vita]

Between lifting frequently, rock climbing infrequently, and dry firing every day squeezing the hell out of the gun it isn't even a blip on my radar. Train like you compete and you'll develop the necessary strength/stamina.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[Pistolpete9]

Well...I'm a math teacher so I squeeze chalk kinda hard.  Does that count?  I'll get there. Thanks for the great stats to back up the talk!  Definitely convinces me to work harder on it.

[Jake Di Vita]

Glad to hear it, feel free to come back with any other questions. Even if you just do 10 minutes of dry fire a day squeezing very hard it'll eventually get easier and 10 minutes a day is far more time than you'll ever spend doing it at a match. You can build up to it over the course of a month or two so it isn't a big shock to your gripping systems.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[CrashDodson]

On 11/22/2016 at 10:23 AM, Jake Di Vita said:

Do you store it in your purse?

I shot water all over my screen...thanks Jake.

[lancejoshlin]

What's the average time difference in your splits between the harder and hammerish squeeze on both close targets and far targets? Since I'm asking you for times, I'll provide mine. Looking at my notes when I tested this years ago I ran 400 bill drills doing all 100 of one method a day once per week for a month. 100 at 7 yards squeezing very hard, 100 at 7 yards squeezing a little less hard, 100 at 25 yards squeezing very hard, 100 at 25 yards squeezing a little less hard.

7 yards less hard I averaged 1.67 (fastest 1.52 and slowest 1.79) and shot 535 alphas, 64 charlies, 1 delta for 2933/3000 points. Average hit factor of 17.56

7 yards very hard I averaged 1.55 (fastest 1.30 and slowest 1.70) and shot 557 alphas, 43 charlies for 2957/3000. Average hit factor of 19.07.

25 yards less hard I averaged 2.74 (fastest was 2.41 and slowest 3.03) and shot 507 alphas, 78 charlies, 13 deltas, 2 misses for 2853/3000 points. Average hit factor of 10.41.

25 yards very hard I averaged 2.35 (fastest was 2.07 and slowest 2.61) and shot 532 alphas, 65 charlies, 3 deltas for 2926/3000 points. Average hit factor of 12.45.

I haven't looked at this notebook for years, I had forgotten how compelling the data was. 

OK, I give up, I find it amazingly impressive that you have this data on hand, and that you could do that many drills in one day AND record all of that info, tape targets, and rescore Everytime. I've never in my life had enough time to do that and doubtfully never will. Alot of times I find that's what separate GMs and everybody else, alot more time and money to throw at the game lol.

[Jake Di Vita]

It took like 10 hours over the course of an entire month to do that, each session was recorded as being from 6:00 pm - 8:30 pm...hardly a huge expenditure of time and money. The testing isn't nearly as much work as you're making it out to be and the recording of drills is important for anyone who wants to improve. It's not that I have a surplus of time and money to throw at the game, I just made it a higher priority than a lot of people do. I haven't shot a nationals in almost 10 years because I don't have the resources to prepare like I'd need to for a performance I'd be happy with. 

What separates GMs from everyone else is the work that happens when most people are sleeping, hanging out with friends, or relaxing. The only thing special about my situation is I hate losing a lot more than most people who hate losing.

[lancejoshlin]

Between work, and family I get a day a weekend maybe for live fire, which I have my own range with steel and props etc which helps, and sometimes 30mins a night to dry fire, doesn't matter how bad I want it, that's what I have to work with lol. My goal is to make A by the end of 2017...

[Sac Law Man]

Jake many shooters can grip hard when they first grab their pistol, but have a hard time maintaining this amount of pressure throughout a course of fire.  What advice can you give in regards to this?   Thanks 

[Pistolpete9]

He kind of already answered that for me and it was pretty much what you would guess: train with a strong grip more often and it will grow your stamina and grip strength.  Dry fire and live fire.  Once you've done that for a while you can implement it into a competition.  I've already been trying it and I am planning on not only doing similar research to his but also noting how tired I am at the end of a string of fire over the course of the next several months so that I can note changes.

[rowdyb]

John, dry fire lots with conscious thought to really gripping the heck out of the gun. Pick a Coc that's easy for you, like the 0.5 or the S, and hold it closed for 30s, 60s, or as long as possible. For me, hours of dry fire squeezing hard hard hard gave me grip stamina in just a few weeks. And didn't hurt my elbows.

[Jake Di Vita]

1 hour ago, Sac Law Man said:

Jake many shooters can grip hard when they first grab their pistol, but have a hard time maintaining this amount of pressure throughout a course of fire.  What advice can you give in regards to this?   Thanks 

Yeah pretty much what Pete and rowdy said.

The answer is in your question. If squeezing hard drains your grip, then continuing to do what drains your grip will make your grip better. As mentioned earlier there are certainly cross training methods to increase grip strength/stamina. In general if doing something exhausts you by definition it is applying stimulus to make yourself better at what you're doing. Consistency is the most important thing.

Wanna add one more thing...If you can only dry fire with a properly tight grip for 3 minutes before you're exhausted, then just do 3 minutes and take a rest until you can do it again. The consistency thing is two part. The first part is consistency in how you are applying your grip and the second part is consistency in doing it frequently. If you skip out on one of those you're hamstringing your ability to improve.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[CrashDodson]

When I started taking dry fire seriously and really pushing par times and working with COC grippers I ended up with elbow issues.  I've worked through them now but I would recommend also doing some of these exercises  at the same time as they helped me.  You may get lucky and not have any elbow trouble but tennis elbow is no fun.  

 

[abb1]

On 11/1/2016 at 4:13 PM, CHA-LEE said:

Did you use the search function? This same topic has been covered at least 8907234872349237823947 times.

If you don't have anything useful to say or contribute, Don't post!! It is funny how these spammers got their post counts so high, without any action ever being taken. I get sick of these posts. Spammers like this should be warned and if it continues--BANNED!

 

As to answer your question, I don't think that a better answer can be given as to what MQW has posted. That was an excellent post. I like to try to use a 70/30 grip for most of my shooting, however, I find that for me this only works when I consciously think 'grip' before the buzzer. I have practiced drawing for hours on end to improve my grip strength on the draw, but when that buzzer goes off, it sometimes is not consciously there, and this is really noticeable by the difference of a good stage and a bad stage. The key is practice so that your grip pressure becomes a conscious routine. 

Edited December 4, 2016 by abb1

[js1130146]

On 12/4/2016 at 9:36 AM, abb1 said:

If you don't have anything useful to say or contribute, Don't post!! It is funny how these spammers got their post counts so high, without any action ever being taken. I get sick of these posts. Spammers like this should be warned and if it continues--BANNED!

FWIW CHA-LEE is not a spammer. He's done more experimenting and testing that most everyone else on this board. Go read his range diary. It's just frustrating answering the same question over and over. Just use the search function.

[MemphisMechanic]

On 12/1/2016 at 0:28 PM, Sac Law Man said:

Jake many shooters can grip hard when they first grab their pistol, but have a hard time maintaining this amount of pressure throughout a course of fire.  What advice can you give in regards to this? 

Steve Anderson's podcast would tell you that you need to do it in dryfire the same way for a few weeks, until it becomes the new normal, and from there on out your subconscious mind will automatically put that grip pressure into play anytime you present a handgun to a target.

Once it becomes the normal way for you to handle the gun.