Just shot my first match SSR

[will227457]

ok so I just shot my first match in SSR, my 4th ever IDPA match. With my model 19, comp III speed loaders and .38spl ammo mixed brass, unique powder, bear creek bullets.

a couple of observations:

1. I found that if I didn't run a steel brush through my cylinders every 2 stages I got sticky cylinders and had to shove the rounds in with my thumb. Does everyone do this? the revolver guys in my squad shot moon guns and didn't have this issue

2. I modified my speed loaders as outlined in this forum, this works great! unless you drop the loader on the ground like I did one stage....killed 5 second fumbling around with it on the ground.

3. I need to tilt my gun up/back more when I eject my shells I had 2 stages were I had a shell get stuck under the extractor, and had to fish it out with my fingernail....killed the stage for me as the first half of the stage I smoked pist me off....anyway to eliminate this? how should I be ejecting the shells?

so for the experts, I found some unburned powder in my gun and I have these loads loaded up to what my manuel says is +p levels, I think I need to switch powders to a faster powder what ae you guys using?

I shoot bear creek valley 158 SWC bullets moly coated

I use mixed brass, but I was thinking I should by some uniform brass for matchs, plus I like to win...LOL and want to eliminate all equipment issues. I should be the limiting factor in my shooting not my equipment. Starline makes a 38 LONG COLT brass that is shorter than the reg .38 spl brass, maybe this will help with faster reloads?

Also I do a switch hand reload being so right hand dominate I can't seem to do a a reload the other way, I figured no big deal till they had a flashlight stage...LOL....I made it through but would like to try to become proficient the other way. Any suggestions?

BTW I won my division....(not many guys shoot SSR)..and would have finished 2nd in ESR, also finished 16th overall I think 41 guys shot this weekend....

Much lower than when I have shot SSP but I didn't have very high expectations.......so not bad but not good either.

I need to solve my equipment issues, and work on my reloads, and stage management to account for 6 shots.....I also short stroked it twice

I had a great time though and the SSP division will not see me for a long while......

any comments or help appreciated...

Edited January 12, 2010 by will227457

[Boats]

Clays cured the sticky cylinder problem for me. Unique is very dirty powder. The gun makes long runs with no cleaning. Hundreds of rounds still drop easy. Hodgen does not publish any + P data for Clays and cast bullets. I run mine in a 686 over published data very slightly with no signs of pressure or problems. Only gun I have ever done that with. It is a strong 357 and the over manual loads are very mild, I think they are issuing very conservative data. Had to go a few tenths over to make IDPA PF most of the guys I shoot with do the same. I don't shoot the same loads in my M 19 2 1/2 inch mostly use it for non PF matches like BUG or our clubs revolver only matches not under IDPA rules. With it I back off on the Clays to max published data. No sense in pushing a nice old 19. In the 686 It's not a big difference max vs just over max except when you look at the chronograph. Case and primer no visible or measurable difference at all

Don't know about your matches but most of the ones around here are lost brass so it's to expensive to use matched or special brass. Actually I don't think it's important anyway. My moonclipped 45 acp 625's I do use matched brass, it's easy to do with clipped ammo no reason not to sort them out.

Clean burning powder round nose bullets and chamfered cylinders they drop in fine.

Boats

Edited January 11, 2010 by Boats

[Chris Christian]

Will,

Long post. I'll try to answer as much as I can.

(1) 38 Long Colt brass is authorized by the Rule Book. It is also very frowned upon by many, including MDs. I've used it, loved it, full extraction with a flick of the ejector rod. Makes 125 PF easier, less powder, because of the decreased case volume. The Rule Book says it's legal. I wouldn't want to try it at a Sanctioned match without first clearing it with the MD.

(2) Brushing chambers between COFs is a fact of life for SSR shooters. The ESR guys have six cases in a moon slip to make one very solid mass that ejects on one stroke. Us SSR giys have six individual (and very lightweight) objects that have to clear with the same ejector stroke. I polish each chamber in the cylinder and then run a .38 stainless brush, followed by a .40 cal soft bristle brush, through each chamber every other COF.

(3) Unique is a dirty powder. I use 231 and HP-38 with less problems.

(4) Mixed brass will give VERY mixed chrono results... as much as 80 fps. No prob at a club match. But, if you travel to a sanctioned match where you might be chronoed you might want to go the same headstamp route (I do) and chrono each chamber in your cylinder to see which are the fastest... and those are the ones to load for chrono.

(5) I use the FBI reload method and when dumping cases I bring the gun to full vertical for ejection as I bring it down to my belt carriers for the reload. Comp IIIs rule, but the fired cases have to come out first. It really sucks to have a Comp III coming to the gun, with a fired case hanging up. A dexterious pinky (as you seem to have found) helps... but polished chambers, brushed chambers, and forceful vertical ejection, can help prevent that.

(6) if you are heading to a Sanctioned match don't trust reloading manuals to tell you what your velocity is. They're useless. You need to actually chrono your loads or risk "just watching" the match.

Of all the divisions in IDPA, SSR is the toughest to shoot in... partially because you have to reload your ammo to compete... and also because you can't "spray & pray"... COF management, shot plan, etc is a major factor.

By the same token... it's a real hoot to beat semi-auto shooters! And, it can be done. In fact, if the COFs are laid out in your favor (all 6 rounds or less, or exactly 12 rounds) HOA (I know, it's not an IDPA category, but shooters do look at the final score) is very possible. Done it a half-dozen times, and against some SSP MA & EX shooters.

Talk about driving back to the house with a really big smile on your face! But, it does take some work.

Chris Christian

[Brian Gonsalves]

.38 Long Colt brass may not be mentioned in the Rulebook, but it is not approved. In an email to me, Robert Ray has ruled that Long and Short Colt brass will not be allowed.

I use Bear Creek bullets as well. Try the 158 Round Nose instead of the SWC they will load much faster.

On the powder front, I've been working up some loads with N320 and N350. Both are very clean.

[J.Bagakis]

Hi Will, John Bagakis here, I shot on your squad.

I have never used speed loaders before but I think getting the revolver more vertical will help with getting the shells out.

I have used Bullseye powder (With Moon Clips) for years with no problems.

I did not know that the LC.38 brass may not be leagal in IDPA (Too many Rules) Sorry about that!

You may want to come out and shoot the ICORE match on Jan. 30th at Richmond there will be several Wheel gunners there to ask about loads and gear.

thanks

John

P.S. we did pretty good for the wheel guns !

[earplug]

Mixed brass equal mixed case lengths. This effects the bullet crimp. I was having the same type stuck case problems due to a slight case mouth bulge due to the mixed lengths.

You can trim them all to length or buy matching brass.

[Bubber]

will, I concur with most of the advice already given in the preceeding posts. Cleaner cylinders may help with extraction problems. If any of your cases are split it will also cause problems in extrations. Most of the time I find not being aggressive enough on the ejector rod has caused some delays in removing the brass but it does not get under the extractor unless you leave it in the back position a long time. I can do the strong hand reload but I prefer the other as I learned on speedloaders when I first started out and reload mooncliped revos the same as speedloader revos. By all means take up John's invite to shoot at Richmond. Having a few revo guys can give you constructive advice on how you are doing things should help a lot. ( I can not spell immencely). On a speedloader I use whatever brass I have laying around. Different headstamp and all, and at the velocities and pressures I shoot it matters very little. Just a little of the stuff I have found out. YMMV Good going!! Later rdd

[John Z Sr]

Welcome to revo world, the most fun you can have with six bullets at a time!!! And yes it is great to beat the bottom feeders in a match with an "old fashioned" firearm

[will227457]

Hi Will, John Bagakis here, I shot on your squad.

I have never used speed loaders before but I think getting the revolver more vertical will help with getting the shells out.

I have used Bullseye powder (With Moon Clips) for years with no problems.

I did not know that the LC.38 brass may not be leagal in IDPA (Too many Rules) Sorry about that!

You may want to come out and shoot the ICORE match on Jan. 30th at Richmond there will be several Wheel gunners there to ask about loads and gear.

thanks

John

P.S. we did pretty good for the wheel guns !

I'd say you did pretty good you won the whole damn Match.....by a very decent margin...I mean jeez what did you drop 3 points...very nice indeed....I watch shooters like you and it reminds me of how far I have to go.....

By the way I enjoyed being on your squad and some of your insites to the CoF that they had there. Very helpful for me THX!!!!!

Also I enjoy shooting with people that are much better than I am as it tend's to raise my level of shooting....

I will try to make the ICORE match, I need more speed loaders, and pouchs......the next one for sure

Edited January 12, 2010 by will227457

[MrBorland]

1. I found that if I didn't run a steel brush through my cylinders every 2 stages I got sticky cylinders and had to shove the rounds in with my thumb. Does everyone do this? the revolver guys in my squad shot moon guns and didn't have this issue

I've been having this problem too. I don't seem to have it with factory ammo, and since I'm a noob reloader, and our local matches are pretty relaxed, I've been shooting WWB until I get this issue resolved (and until I get comfy with my own reloads by sending a bunch of them downrange under non-match conditions. ( I did say I was a noob reloader, right?))

I have recently noticed, though, that I didn't have my sizing die set to re-size as far down the brass as possible (Did I mention yet I'm a noob reloader?). I measured the case just above the rim before full-length re-sizing and found it slightly larger (a few thousanths). Full-length resizing obviously fixed that, but I haven't been to the range yet to see if it helped the problem.

[will227457]

Another guy at the match mentioned Clays, I'll have to find some...problem is I got tons of Unique....I'll get some round nose as I'm almost out of the SWC.....

were can I get a final word on LC 38 brass?

If it is legal I would like to use it, assuming I use it for IDPA matchs only and can recover most of it 2K-3K should last a long time.

I'm not sure if were I shoot is a lost brass range, but i found that by pasting targets every time I was able to swoop down and recover my brass as it all tends to fall in the same spot, when I have shot SSP I just kinda figured id lose it as it flys everywere no big deal.

[Brian Gonsalves]

were can I get a final word on LC 38 brass?

If it is legal I would like to use it, assuming I use it for IDPA matchs only and can recover most of it 2K-3K should last a long time.

Send me a PM with your email address and I'll forward Robert Ray's (IDPA Rule guy) email to you.

The Long Colt Brass is fine for ICORE.

Also, I'll be bringing a group of people from the NVSA ICORE club in Gridley down Richmond to shoot the January ICORE match too!

[westczek]

I've been running my loaded cartridges through a taper crimp die after crimping to make them uniform. Havent ha a problem dropping them in since, even at the end of a match, with no pressure needed. I'm using 38 special in a 686.

Hope this helps.

[Toolguy]

I personally don't think Long Colt is enough shorter than .38 Special to make it worth the hassle and expense. Mixed brass Special

is cheap and will work fine for what you are doing with it. Usually you can't tell much difference in accuracy between mixed and all the

same brass till you get to 50 yards and beyond. My 2 cents.

[Boats]

I argured against lost brass policy at our club and was voted down, It does slow down the squads, not a lot but we run so many guys through a minute each squad is a lot end of the day. Does not take long with a revolver but open it up and guys will scronge for 9mm cases all over the place. Can be a saftey issue if someone is bent over behind some target when the range is checked to go hot. Guys that tear down end of the match get to recover the brass for themselves helps the work load a lot. Major matches around here, Blackwater and Carolina cup are all lost brass.

Are you tied to the M 19 ? I think they are great but a shooter with potential will probably do better long run with a 686. Heavier and able to take PF loads better. PF is the thing that holds K Frames back in IDPA, my opinion anyway. You can sell most 19's for as much as it cost to buy a good 686

Boats

Edited January 12, 2010 by Boats

[CDPMatt]

K-frames are fine and actually preferred..... look at every national champ in SSR, I believe Craig Buckland (Bones) shared with me they were all won using a K-frame.

[Tom E]

I personally don't think Long Colt is enough shorter than .38 Special to make it worth the hassle and expense.

Very true. Long Colt isn't short enough. Trim cases to .900 " and it is worthwhile. I've got a bunch of 38 special brass trimmed to .900 for my 627's (instead of using Short Colt's). It works great with modified Jets for my K frames. Can't use factory 38 special beause virtual none will make power factor in the "real world" sport of IDPA so you have to reload but you can't do it in a more practical length brass.

[Duane Thomas]

1. I found that if I didn't run a steel brush through my cylinders every 2 stages I got sticky cylinders and had to shove the rounds in with my thumb. Does everyone do this? the revolver guys in my squad shot moon guns and didn't have this issue

As has been observed, Unique is a famously dirty powder. Switching to more clean burning powder will no doubt solve many of your problems. Also with a revolver it's VERY important that during the reload you hold the gun straight up-and-down when you you hit the ejector rod. Not only does this give gravity the maximum opportunity to aid in reliable ejection, it also gives unburnt powder granules the maximum opportunity to fall out of the gun at this time.

3. I need to tilt my gun up/back more when I eject my shells I had 2 stages were I had a shell get stuck under the extractor, and had to fish it out with my fingernail....killed the stage for me as the first half of the stage I smoked pist me off....anyway to eliminate this? how should I be ejecting the shells?

When we see empty shell casings left in the chambers during a speedload, there are several common causes:

(1) An overly enthusiastic chamfering job on the chamber mouths has bevelled them too much to get a good purchase on the case rims. As a new SSR shooter firing a (I assume) mostly unmodded revolver, I doubt this is the case. Personally I prefer, when chamfering a revolver's chambers, to remove the extractor star and whittle metal only from the cylinder itself, leaving the edges of the extractor star square.

(2) Rough chambers, typically mated with high pressure ammo; the casings swell so violently they fireform themselves into the imperfections in the chamber walls and stick fast. Probably not your problem, I would think.

(3) The shooter has failed to hold the cylinder all the way out while punching the ejector rod, thus the rim of the inward-most casing has hooked on the frame, the extractor star is thus driven up and over the rim, and you wind up with the extractor star on top of the casing. This is a bad maf - since you don't mention it, I assume you didn't have it. Since you're switching hands anyway - I do, as well - there's really no reason not to use the "LFI technique" where you wrap your hand around the cylinder and use the middle two fingers to continuously press the cylinder all the way out during the load.

(4) Failure to hold the gun straight up-and-down, perhaps also combined with not whacking the ejector rod hard enough, has failed to full-length extract the casings. Combine that with dirty chambers, one or more casings wind up only partially out of the chambers. Your most likely problem.

My opinioin, a cleaner burning powder and a bit of work on technique and you should be down the road.

[Carmoney]

I disagree. I would strongly recommend avoiding learning a reload technique that involves the muzzle going straight up or straight down. IDPA may not have a 180-degree rule per se, but USPSA and ICORE certainly do. Once reloading habits are established, it's hard to make adjustments. I've seen people DQ'd at major matches for violating the vertical 180.

[Tom E]

It's also real easy to get your hand in front of the muzzle when you go to whack the ejector rod on a (relatively) short barreled revolver.

[will227457]

1. I found that if I didn't run a steel brush through my cylinders every 2 stages I got sticky cylinders and had to shove the rounds in with my thumb. Does everyone do this? the revolver guys in my squad shot moon guns and didn't have this issue

As has been observed, Unique is a famously dirty powder. Switching to more clean burning powder will no doubt solve many of your problems. Also with a revolver it's VERY important that during the reload you hold the gun straight up-and-down when you you hit the ejector rod. Not only does this give gravity the maximum opportunity to aid in reliable ejection, it also gives unburnt powder granules the maximum opportunity to fall out of the gun at this time.

3. I need to tilt my gun up/back more when I eject my shells I had 2 stages were I had a shell get stuck under the extractor, and had to fish it out with my fingernail....killed the stage for me as the first half of the stage I smoked pist me off....anyway to eliminate this? how should I be ejecting the shells?

When we see empty shell casings left in the chambers during a speedload, there are several common causes:

(1) An overly enthusiastic chamfering job on the chamber mouths has bevelled them too much to get a good purchase on the case rims. As a new SSR shooter firing a (I assume) mostly unmodded revolver, I doubt this is the case. Personally I prefer, when chamfering a revolver's chambers, to remove the extractor star and whittle metal only from the cylinder itself, leaving the edges of the extractor star square.

(2) Rough chambers, typically mated with high pressure ammo; the casings swell so violently they fireform themselves into the imperfections in the chamber walls and stick fast. Probably not your problem, I would think.

(3) The shooter has failed to hold the cylinder all the way out while punching the ejector rod, thus the rim of the inward-most casing has hooked on the frame, the extractor star is thus driven up and over the rim, and you wind up with the extractor star on top of the casing. This is a bad maf - since you don't mention it, I assume you didn't have it. Since you're switching hands anyway - I do, as well - there's really no reason not to use the "LFI technique" where you wrap your hand around the cylinder and use the middle two fingers to continuously press the cylinder all the way out during the load.

(4) Failure to hold the gun straight up-and-down, perhaps also combined with not whacking the ejector rod hard enough, has failed to full-length extract the casings. Combine that with dirty chambers, one or more casings wind up only partially out of the chambers. Your most likely problem.

My opinioin, a cleaner burning powder and a bit of work on technique and you should be down the road.

thx for the ideas....I actually do have my chambers chamfered, However I do not think that this is the problem as I took the extractor out when I did it and I only knocked the corners off the cylinders actually only very lightly knocked them down, My extractor star is in it's original shape.

pretty sure the chambers are not the issue either as I have polished them shiny smooth. And I have not chrono'ed my ammo yet I have loaded up to +p per the manuel but I don't really trust it, and while they "Feel" stiffer than my normal poof loads for .38 I have no real way of knowing till I get off my butt and set up my chrono.

you mentioned not opening up the cylinder up the whole way and the inner most piece of brass hanging up on the frame, in the 2 instances this happened it was the shell closest to the frame, so maybe in my hurry to eject the shells and reload I didn't swing the cylinder out enough......something to practice....that and holding the gun angled up more when I eject the cartridges....

Like you said "Cleaner powder and technique"

thx

[will227457]

Are you tied to the M 19 ? I think they are great but a shooter with potential will probably do better long run with a 686. Heavier and able to take PF loads better. PF is the thing that holds K Frames back in IDPA, my opinion anyway. You can sell most 19's for as much as it cost to buy a good 686

Boats

I'm kinda committed to the m19 for now, I got the gear for it plus no one will want my beat up gun not after I swapped out the springs bobbed the hammer, chamfered the cylinder etc.....

I love the look of the S&W SSR though I'll have to save my pennies

that said the m19 points more naturally to me than any other handgun I own...take that with a grain of salt as all my other guns are autos and this is my only revolver currently....so I have no other wheel gun to compare it to.

[Bones]

will,

I've shot a few IDPA matches in SSR.

Using 158gr plated RN bullets, Tightgroup or VV N320; a stainless steel chamber brush between stages; gravity; and nickle-plated 38 Special cases for matches will cure just about every ill you mentioned.

The Model 19 is a great gun. K-frames have won a lot of Major matches in SSR for a reason.

Good luck and Welcome. Try ICORE Retro - your SSR gun and gear will work just fine there too.

Craig

Edited January 12, 2010 by Bones

[Gregg K]

3. I need to tilt my gun up/back more when I eject my shells I had 2 stages were I had a shell get stuck under the extractor, and had to fish it out with my fingernail....killed the stage for me as the first half of the stage I smoked pist me off....anyway to eliminate this? how should I be ejecting the shells?

Are you saying that you had a shell get sucked back in and was in front of the extractor so that you had to hold the extractor back and use your fingernail to extract the shell from the cylinder? If that was the case then you can limit the amount of travel that the ejector has so that it can't happen.

[will227457]

3. I need to tilt my gun up/back more when I eject my shells I had 2 stages were I had a shell get stuck under the extractor, and had to fish it out with my fingernail....killed the stage for me as the first half of the stage I smoked pist me off....anyway to eliminate this? how should I be ejecting the shells?

Are you saying that you had a shell get sucked back in and was in front of the extractor so that you had to hold the extractor back and use your fingernail to extract the shell from the cylinder? If that was the case then you can limit the amount of travel that the ejector has so that it can't happen.

yes this is what happened shell was in front of the extractor