38 spl to make PF in IDPA

[michaelhk]

I have a Ruger GP100 & am having trouble making pf in IDPA. Does any one have a good load worked out. I have tried win 231 behind a fmj of 130 gr, not even close . Thanks Mike

[lugnut]

I need 5.0gr of 231 with a 158gr plated bullet to make minor. Most std commercial 38 loads won't make PF. My 686 can shoot .357 magnum loads so I'm well within the capability of the gun... and I'd expect I'm somewhere north of 38+ loads now... not sure.

[Bubber]

You may have to go to a heavier bullet. I use a hard cast Billy Bullet 160 grain with 4.1 grains of Solo 1000 through a 4 inch Smith 686 and it gives me 800 fps for a 128000 pf. A good feel for recail and a standard deviation of about 16 fps. A jacketed bullet runs maybe 100fps slower than a lead bullet usually. YMMV. Hope it is helpful. later rdd

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

158gr FMJ like Berry double strike makes it with 4.5gr Titegroup and Fed Small Pistol Primers//requires a good crimp but if you crimp too much the bullet will tumble

You need to go for +P loads. Many factory +P DO NOT MAKE PF so be very careful. I know a S&W Employee that didn't make minor in the VT Mountains one year using factory ammo.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[Boats]

I wanted to use Clays in my SSR. Clean, Fast speedloader reload, and it's the powder I use in 45 ACP, keeps things simple. Only problem is Hodgon does not publish any +P data for Clays and the 38 spl. Max published load would not make power factor

I ended up with a charge of Clays pushing 158 gr LRN that's slightly over Hodgens max for that bullet in 38 spl. Going over recommended loads is something I have never done before, but it's a 686 .357 revolver no signs at all of pressure in the case or primer and shoots very well. I started under published max and worked up loading at the range over a chronograph. I also believe new manuals are more conservative than old ones.

Not recommending it to anyone else though.

Boats

[Chris Christian]

For a sanctioned match load I use a Speer 180 grain TMJ Silhouete bullet in my 4 inch GP-100. Groups under two inches at 25 yards and the pointed profile reloads beautifully. I use Federal primers, .38 Spl cases, and 231 powder. There is no published loading data for this load... so I will not print the powder charge. But, it's not much different (actually a touch less) than the amount I would use to make 125 PF with a 158 grain bullet, and others have posted what they use with 231 to accomplish that. The 180 bullet needs 695 fps to make 125. My load does about 760 fps, and recoils about the same as the 158 +P loads that will hover around 125 PF. The best I can determine from a lot of research is that this load exceeds the 18,000 pressure of a .38 +P load, but likely isn't over 21,000, if that much. The GP-100 is a .357 and rated for 42,000, so I don't worry... but I would not shoot this load from a .38 Spl. I've played with a lot of .38 loads to find a consistent "over 130 PF" load and this is the best I've found.

Chris Christian

[michaelhk]

Thanks, will try the heavier bullet for staters

[jmax]

I use 3.3-3.4 gr of Clays with a Bear Creek RN moly coated as my ICORE load w/PF of 129000-130000 year after year at the IRC out of a 5" 627.

[hearthco]

Try the 170 moly bullet from Billy Bullets starting with about 3.0 grains of clays. Dave

[Chris Christian]

I've heard of that 170 moly Billy Bullet but have not tried it. Does it have a cannelure?

Chris Christian

[Tom D.]

Interesting thread...sounds like I'm screwed withe the Model 15 I just bought. Maybe this loading problem is why it was for sale! Since this is my first venture into SSR and with a K-frame gun, I would certainly appreciate load suggestions. Thanks to all respondents.

[Chris Christian]

The S&W M15 is a great gun. But, the IDPA 125 PF requirement does make it tough to use for extended shooting because you're working at pressures beyond basic .38 Spl. FWIW, my experience is that any jacketed bullet (of any weight) that makes 125 PF is going to be at pressure levels I would not want to shoot steadily in a M15. Lead bullets can produce a bit more velocity at lower pressures than jacketed, and would be a better bet. I believe (but do not know for a fact because I have not done the necessary research) that if you experimented with cast lead bullets in the 170 to 200 grain range (with quick burning powders) you could make the 125 PF (bullet weight x velocity) at .38 Spl pressure levels. Years back there was a factory 200 grain LRN load for .38 Spl that would have made the 125 PF, and at 38 Spl pressures. If you do find a load that works with the heavy bullets you may need to have the front sight height increased in order to zero the gun - the heavier bullets, regardless of velocity, nornally shoot higher than 158 grain slugs. With all that said, you're not likely to be chroned at a club level match, and most of the clubs I've shot at aren't going to give you grief if you're using a factory equivilent .38 pl load (158 gr/760 fps). Sanctioned matches are a different story, and you need to make the PF there. Hope that helps.

Chris Christian

[MrBorland]

Lead bullets can produce a bit more velocity at lower pressures than jacketed

Which side of the fence do plated bullets fall? Jacketed or lead? In the middle?

Reason I'm asking is I've been following the thread and working on making PF in SSR, too. I shoot indoor, and thought it'd be good manners to shoot plated bullets to keep the smoke down. The good folks at Berry's told me to follow the "lead" recipes in the reloading manuals. OK, fine. According to the Lee manual, 4.2gr W-231 ought to be about right for a 158gr bullet, then (OAL 1.55"). I've yet to chrono these loads (don't own a chrono yet), but I read above that it takes 5gr W-231 to make PF with a plated bullet.

Could one make PF by reducing OAL instead of increasing powder charge? At these starting pressures & charges, is this dangerous? With these Berry's, it looks like I could get down to 1.475". I realize pressure would go up, but the Lee manual states the 1.55" loads would run at 15.8 kPSI with a lead bullet. How much higher would it be for a plated bullet? And how much higher would it likely be for a plated bullet set at 1.475"

Sorry for the highjack, but this has got me

Time to buy a chrono, I guess...

[Chris Christian]

Definitely get a chrono. The "published velocites" in any reloading manual I have ever seen (and I've got a pile of them going back 20+ years) can not be relied upon.... especially with revolvers. The question was asked about plated bullets and how they compare velocity wise to jacketed or lead. My experience, FWIW, is that they produce velocities more like jacketed than lead. I just got through doing a load work up on 158 grain HSM .38 bullets, with some Speer swaged lead (which I shoot a lot of) to compare. I hadn't used the HSM bullet before (although after testing I liked it and will use it again) so the load work up was careful. The swaged Speer bullets produced an additional 50-60 fps with the same powder (HP-38).

You really need to chrono loads from your revolver and not rely on written data. I've seen loads that would clock 825 fps out of my gun not make 770 out of a friend's gun. Every revolver seems to be a bit different (individual chamber dimensions & cylinder gap) and that can affect velocity. The worst time to find out that the "published velocity data" you relied on is not correct is when you travel to a sanctioned match... and have paid for airfare, hotel, rental car, or just $2.70 a gallon gas to drive there etc... and fail the chrono.

Chris Christian

[Bill Nesbitt]

I've been able to make power factor more easily using the moly 160 grain Billy Bullets. Titegroup and VV320 have both worked OK. I used to use Bullseye but none of the newer manuals list my load anymore.

All my K-Frames are 38 special including a Model 15. They seem to be holding up OK. I've had the M-15 for over 25 years. I think there's enough sight adjustment to use heavier bullets.

You'll need to chrono your ammo. All my guns shoot different velocities with the same ammo.

[lugnut]

Lead bullets can produce a bit more velocity at lower pressures than jacketed

According to the Lee manual, 4.2gr W-231 ought to be about right for a 158gr bullet, then (OAL 1.55"). I've yet to chrono these loads (don't own a chrono yet), but I read above that it takes 5gr W-231 to make PF with a plated bullet.

Could one make PF by reducing OAL instead of increasing powder charge? At these starting pressures & charges, is this dangerous? With these Berry's, it looks like I could get down to 1.475". I realize pressure would go up, but the Lee manual states the 1.55" loads would run at 15.8 kPSI with a lead bullet. How much higher would it be for a plated bullet? And how much higher would it likely be for a plated bullet set at 1.475"

As mentioned- different guns will give slightly different results... however I use 231 and 158gr Berrys and I can tell you that 4.2gr will not even get me close to 125pf!

When I was building up my loads I got 99pf with 4.0gr 231 and 113pf with 4.6gr. 5.1gr gets me comfortably above the 125pf for matches.... 5.0gr gets me just over 125pf.

WRT the OAL... I don't think you could decrease the OAL in the 38 loads to make any real difference... their is just so much case volume to start with.. but I'm not an expert on this. I use 1.500".

Edited December 29, 2009 by lugnut

[MrBorland]

Wow - thanks for the great feedback, folks! Time to get a chrono. I should've posted this before Christmas!

[Danva]

I am making minor out of my 4" 686 using vv320 @ 125gr MG bullet. this is using max load @+P. Load hovers around 130pf+-

[RePete]

This load from Craig Buckland (S&W sponsored shooter)

158gr Plated bullet

4.3gr/Titegroup

I have yet to chrono this load from my 4" 686.

[Boats]

It's easier to use lead. Less friction they need less preassure to get velocity. Cheaper too. They do smoke, it rarely causes a problem even indoor ranges. Only time it has ever held me up was indoors dark stage, 6 right 6 left and 6 more right of the barricade. 18 shots from the same place the flashlight lit up the smoke.

I shoot my 125,000 PF 158 gr LRN Hodgen Clays load in a 4 inch 686, 4 inch 67, or 19 2 1/2 inch with no problems. It does crono different in each gun and will not make PF in the 2 1/2.

Boats

[20nickels]

I don't have a chrony, but am tickled to death with 3.9gr. of WST in a 38spl case under a 158gr LRNFP. Meters consistent and shoots clean.

[RAC]

Keep notes on what temperature you are testing your loads at as you move up to the power factor

I started shooting Revolver about 6 months ago and had a 5.1 grain W231 load with 158 grain Rannier bullets that I was making power factor with, and I was happy with its performance and it was prob. at + P pressures

I was ready to shoot a major match in October and the weather was cold and rainy and I decided to check my load a week before the event

Goood thing I did, Power Factor had dropped way off with the temperature and I was forced to crank up my load quite a bit to get it to where it needed to be. Lots of flame and noise but I did what I had to do to be legal

I also found shooting lead bullets will help to get to power factor easier as they have less friction but I didn't like the smoke.

RC

[lugnut]

Keep notes on what temperature you are testing your loads at as you move up to the power factor

I started shooting Revolver about 6 months ago and had a 5.1 grain W231 load with 158 grain Rannier bullets that I was making power factor with, and I was happy with its performance and it was prob. at + P pressures

I was ready to shoot a major match in October and the weather was cold and rainy and I decided to check my load a week before the event

Goood thing I did, Power Factor had dropped way off with the temperature and I was forced to crank up my load quite a bit to get it to where it needed to be. Lots of flame and noise but I did what I had to do to be legal

I also found shooting lead bullets will help to get to power factor easier as they have less friction but I didn't like the smoke.

RC

I've heard that about 231- what did you need to bump it up to and how cold was it?

[Cherryriver]

My little Detective Special easily makes 125 with 158gr Berry's roundnoses pushed by VV320.

The VV book max is 4.8gr for plated 158s, and this won't show overpressure signs. I back down a tenth or two and still clear the floor by plenty. It chronos about 900fps in a four-incher and 825-830 in a snub. All you need is 791.

It's not listed as a +P load. It won't hurt a Model 15; my DS has launched thousands of these without coming apart.

And, you hardly have to clean the gun.

[RePete]

I have a Ruger GP100 & am having trouble making pf in IDPA. Does any one have a good load worked out. I have tried win 231 behind a fmj of 130 gr, not even close . Thanks Mike

No one has asked this.

What's the barrel length of the GP100?

Also for snubbies, you don't have to make PF with your ammo BUT it will have to make PF in the maximum barrel length for you class and that length is 4". So, if you shoot a match with a snubbie and you've chrono'd with 4" barreled revolver and made PF, take the 4"'er with you for the chrono stage.