Joe Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 My buddy blue edge has a vent in the 'what I like' forum covering this situtation. I'm looking for some clarification. The shooter comes to the line. At the LAMR command the slide is operated and a jam occures because there is a snap cap in the chamber. Is this a dq? I couldn't find a rule that covers this specific situtation so I'm answering no. But I of course what the input of others. As I've certainly been known to be wrong! TIA, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 joe, vince "the man" will chime in soon, don't worry. but, in the mean time, i believe the gut response would be a dq. if you can't have snap cap in a safe area, you surely can't have them in your gun any where else. sorry bye bye lynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Joe, I just saw the Bat signal. An interesting scenario. If I was the officiating RO, my question would be "When and where did the snap cap get loaded into your chamber?" and there are two actions I would take, depending on the answer, as follows: Answer 1 - If the competitor said something along the lines of "I was dry firing at home last night/this morning and I forgot to remove the final snap cap before I left for the range", I would ask him to unload the snap cap there and then, and I'd proceed with the usual range commands, but I'd take no further action other than to issue him a warning (verbally and on his score sheet), and I'd advise him to be more careful in the future. Answer 2 - If the competitor said the snap cap was inserted into his gun in a safety area or in any other part of the range (or within the part of the range where the IPSC match was being held), I would be obliged to give him a match DQ under Rules 10.5.1 or 10.5.12 from the January 2004 Edition of the IPSC rulebook (either handling a firearm outside a COF or handling ammo in a safety area). Hope this helps. POSTSCRIPT: In case you need the same rules in the current rulebook, they're 10.3.3 and 10.3.14. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted December 9, 2003 Author Share Posted December 9, 2003 Thanks!! Those were my thoughts also. Though if I or anyone didn't see a safezone infraction there is really no rule covering action regarding what might be stated by the competitor, is there? So in effect they could take it to arbitration, correct? Some people just need a good review of safe gun handling. The first thing you do is check the chamber, shees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Hi Joe, The rules also do not require that an RO personally witness an infraction in order to issue a match DQ. I once issued a match DQ where the action of the competitor was only witnessed and reported to me by another competitor. I was informed that the subject competitor removed his gun from his holster and placed it into his range bag while sitting in the bleachers of a spectators shelter behind a stage, where the safety area was only 10 metres away! Of course I interviewed "the accused" but, once he confirmed the incident occurred as reported, I was obliged to act, and he accepted the consequences of his actions as a gentleman should. It turned out that he was a "big match" newbie who didn't know our safety rules well enough, and apparently the very same actions were permitted at his home range Anyway, while sad at having to DQ an honest guy, I'd do it again in a New York minute under the same or similar circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Hmm, interesting. Your reasoning can only work for the first stage the shooter is shooting, right ? And on the very first stage a shooter is shooting that day, he can can always get away with a snap-cap in the chamber by just declaring that they forgot to take it out at home ? Hmm, interesting. My gut feeling says that one should always get a DQ for this as snap-caps are treated as ammo when in safety areas. But on the firing line a snap-cap suddenly isn't ammo anymore ? Hmm, interesting. Vince, I will always follow your advise but my gut feeling is having some trouble with your approach, although I'm all for not issueing DQ's when not really necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Probably no DQ, depending on the particular snap cap. It's not dummy ammo if it doesn't look like real ammo or can't be distinguished from real ammo. I don't consider a transparent or translucent snap cap to be a dummy cartridge or dummy ammunition. Everybody can see it has no projectile, no propellant, nor a casing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 (either handling a firearm outside a COF or handling ammo in a safety area). Hi Vince. I would like some clarifications regarding this rule. Say I were in a match where there are vacant shooting bays. Does this rule mean that when I'm a competitor I will not be able to use the vacant bay to "function test" my gun/mag/load? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 mcoliver, you can only do that if you kindly ask a RO to "assist you" while doing that. During a match, you are not allowed to load/fire your gun unless you are under the direct control of a RO. Garfield, I see your point: you mean that the very same case (snap cap in chamber) will receive different treatment depending on the situation, but I think the rules on this are very clear: snap caps are not allowed in safety areas, not in general, thus if it can be demonstrated the snap cap has been handled in a safety area the competitor is toasted, otherwise he will get the benefit of doubt. Erik, I can't understand your point: 2.4.2 Dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines, loaded speed loading devices, and live rounds must not be handled in a Safety Area under any circumstances (see rule 10.5.12).Snap caps are explicitly forbidden in safety areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Arvid, Yes, your "first stage of the day" scenario is quite correct for "Answer 1". However, as McOlver suggests, there's also the possibility the competitor was authorised by a Range Official to use a vacant bay to test his gun, and it's also conceivable that he might inadvertently leave a spring cap in his gun. Of course most competitors would probably use live rounds to test their guns, but the point I tried to make (not very successfully!!), is that having a spring cap in your chamber outside of a safety area is not automatically a match DQ, as my dear friend from Tennessee implied. You need to ask the question, and your actions will depend on the answer. McOliver, Thanks for reminding me of another possible scenario. Yes, you can use a vacant bay to test fire or function test your gun, provided you have the authority of a Range Official to do so. In fact, if space and staff are available, it's always a nice courtesy to offer competitors. Erik, Even if it's a bright translucent red or orange snap cap with flashing lights, which has no way of firing, handling of same in a safety area is still prohibited. This is a cornerstone of our safety rules. The incoming IPSC rulebook imposes a match DQ for: 10.5.12 Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines or loaded speed loading devices in a Safety Area, or failing to comply with Rule 2.4.1. Even the current USPSA rulebook says: ............... (IPSC) 10.3.14 Handling live or dummy ammunition, loaded magazines or loaded speedloading devices in a Safety Area. ............... US 10.3.14 For clarification purposes, cycling of spent brass would be considered dummy ammunition. Bottom line: No real or pretend ammunition of any description can be legally handled inside a safety area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Thanks Sky & Vince for clarifying that one. Guess the test-gun-first-BEFORE-paying-reg-fee-lest-one-cannot-get-it-back-when-gun-pukes have been a smart move after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Yippeee, just scored 3 out of 3! Can I get a set of Ginsu steak knives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Vince (here we go ), I'm not sure about your interview technique. Personally, I'm not real fond of volunteering information, in any situation. As a shooter, if you want to make a case with regards to me...you will have to make it. I won't make it for you. You will have to report what YOU WITNESSED. And, the the case where one shooter "witnessed and reported" to you. I am of the opinion that the the "witness" would need to file a Third Party Protest. As for the shooter with the snap-cap in his gun at LAMR, I have to go with Vince's first option. The rule (10.3.15) says, "...a live round...". No DQ. If I saw that a shooter was using snap-caps in the Safe Area, then that would be a DQ. I'm not sure about this Sherlock Holmes stuff, is it supported by the rule book? If so, it would appear to fall under a Third Part Protest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Rules schmules. Make that guy walk the plank of nuggie for not checking his chamber before showing up for the party. I don't give a damn what the rulebook says, it's everyone's duty to go to the safety area before game time and make sure his/her gun is completely empty. I don't give a rats behind what was in the chamber: live ammo, a snap cap, or a Junior Mint. The competitor failed to perform a basic courtesy to everyone else on the range. Don't just do it because the "rulebook says so." Do it out of courtesy, respect and a sense of professionalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 All this talk has brought another question to mind. Lets say it's the first stage of the day, the day before I went out to practiced and somehow (violation of basic safety) left a round in the chamber. I come to the line, hammer down, gun is holstered, I get the LAMR command. I insert the magazine and go to rack the slide to load a round into chamber, and a live round comes out? WHats the call and what rule? Say just a piece of empty brass comes out, then what? Say it was a dummy round, no primer, then what? Don't mean to open pandora's box, but it could happen, if someone got lazy. I know first hand that it could happen because I once bought a handgun for my dad, he wanted me to test fire it. I went to the range shoot a box of ammo through it and came home. My room mate saw the box and he wanted to check it out. He takes the gun out and does exactly what I taught him to do, he check the chamber. As he racks it a live round come flying out. I just about sh*t my pants and his eyes are real big. I failed to check the gun after the last round, or what I thought was the last round and had just stuck it back into the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Paul, I think 10.3.15 is pretty clear on both the situations you mentiond (live round vs. non-live round). I don't have the ability to 'cut and paste' the 14th edtion 2001 rules here. And, I don't think I'll re-type it. Sooo... grab your rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Dang, burned at draw by Sir links-a-lot! Well, alas, it was a fair and chivalrous match. Rulebook 14th edition 2003: 10.3.15 Having a loaded handgun other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer. Firearms shall be loaded only on the firing line and only when directed to do so by the Range Officer. A loaded handgun is defined as a gun having a live round in the chamber or having a live round in a magazine inserted in the gun. Rulebook 14th edition 2004: 10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer. A loaded firearm is defined as a gun having a live round in the chamber or having a live round in a magazine inserted in the gun. And this, as Flex said, pretty sums up every question you had: 1. Live round= DQ, 2. Empty brass = slap on your forehead for being so inattentive, check your gun, hammer down, LAMR sequence to start again. 3. Dummy round = same as above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 My opinion applies only to the USPSA rules, which forbid "dummy ammunition" but do not specifically forbid "snap caps." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Erik, I'm too narrow-minded: I always think in terms of IPSC rulebook, I should consider USPSA could be different whenever I post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Flex, The "interview technique" always precedes a Third Party Protest (and many, if not most, appeals to arbitration), and Rule 11.1.3 is the authority. More importantly though, why drag a minimum of 6 people away from a match when a simple Q&A might resolve the issue? EricW, I appreciate your sentiments, but the smart thing to do is check your gun at home before you leave for the range - if you check it in the safety area and find a spring cap. you're toast. Erik, Has the USPSA specifically ruled that snap caps are not classified as dummy ammunition? If not, you might want to check with John Amidon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 If the rulebook doesn't DQ a shooter for having an inert-cartridge in the chamber when he/she steps to the line, it SHOULD! It hard to think of EVERY possible circumstance when rules are written, but if inerts aren't allowed in the safe-area, then they sure as hell shouldn't be allowed in the gun when folks are strolling around the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Norris Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 The guns come out of the safe for a match, they are all checked before they ever leave my hand to reach for the next one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherErik Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 My opinion applies only to the USPSA rules, which forbid "dummy ammunition" but do not specifically forbid "snap caps." I would consider them one in the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 How about a dummy mag like the ones from CTRC? This is basically a chunk of plastic weighted with shot, with no way of containing a live round. I've been told that they are OK to handle and practice with in our range's safe are, but would like to know if your opinions differ . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Kevin, if you are allowed to handle an empty mag in a safety area, I would think you are allowed to handle a "dummy" mag too. The rules only forbid dummy rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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