Both Feet in the Air Fault line Question

[Nik Habicht]

I'm even perfectly o.k. with shooter's firing in the air prior to landing in the box -- i.e. both feet in the air, first foot to touch down touches inside the box.....

So if two shooters shoot the stage the same way, with identical leaps to the box, but one, after firing his airborn shots leans back, and touches down outside the box with has back foot; and the other leans forwards after firing his shots, and touches inside the box with his front foot; you would penalize the first and not the second? I don't think it's legal to penalize after the fact. If the two shooters are doing the same thing when the shots are fired the penalty or lack thereof should be the same.

Not having a clearcut rule e.g. "You are not in the box until making physical contact with a border of the box or its interior." leads to a bunch of confusion.

I'm saying it's a risk --- firing before you're in the box. Touch down inside, no problem, no fault. Touch down outside first, well you were never in, so procedural, or if it was a significant advantage, procedural per shot fired....

Really no different than calling other foot faults....

Most (all?) foot faults I've called and seen called are based on where the foot is as the shot is being fired. This would be unique in that it would be a fault based on something that would occur after the shot was fired.

Using your logic, shooters could exit the free-fire zone, run where they wanted and hop up and down, firing while airborne ---- I'm pretty sure that's not where we want to end up....

I'm less certain a.) that we're discussing a serious and frequent rules problem, and b.) how to resolve it.....

[wide45]

Using your logic, shooters could exit the free-fire zone, run where they wanted and hop up and down, firing while airborne ---- I'm pretty sure that's not where we want to end up....

Why not? Do you really think that will result in a better score?

I'm less certain a.) that we're discussing a serious and frequent rules problem, ...

I'm certain we are not.

[Chills1994]

Who's on first?

What's on second?

Nik wrote:

I'm less certain a.) that we're discussing a serious and frequent rules problem, and b.) how to resolve it.....

As to your point A., just an FYI...doing a search here for "fault" strictly in the subject titles lead me to 9 different threads. I really don't think there are that many foot fault infractions and procedural penalties given of a dubious nature either.

As to your point B, I offered up a solution several pages back about adding pictures or photographs of feet and fault lines with captions like "This is out and a foot fault." or "This is in and is NOT a foot fault." to the rulebook. Some of the confusion stems from the cognitive dissonance people have, yeah, including me, that makes "being NOT out" = "being in" . If USPSA HQ or the NROI would define "being in" exactly, we wouldn't be here still, six pages later.

[Nik Habicht]

O.K., but are we "in" or are we "out?" :lol:

[mhs]

I'm even perfectly o.k. with shooter's firing in the air prior to landing in the box -- i.e. both feet in the air, first foot to touch down touches inside the box.....

So if two shooters shoot the stage the same way, with identical leaps to the box, but one, after firing his airborn shots leans back, and touches down outside the box with has back foot; and the other leans forwards after firing his shots, and touches inside the box with his front foot; you would penalize the first and not the second? I don't think it's legal to penalize after the fact. If the two shooters are doing the same thing when the shots are fired the penalty or lack thereof should be the same.

Not having a clearcut rule e.g. "You are not in the box until making physical contact with a border of the box or its interior." leads to a bunch of confusion.

I'm saying it's a risk --- firing before you're in the box. Touch down inside, no problem, no fault. Touch down outside first, well you were never in, so procedural, or if it was a significant advantage, procedural per shot fired....

Really no different than calling other foot faults....

Most (all?) foot faults I've called and seen called are based on where the foot is as the shot is being fired. This would be unique in that it would be a fault based on something that would occur after the shot was fired.

Using your logic, shooters could exit the free-fire zone, run where they wanted and hop up and down, firing while airborne ---- I'm pretty sure that's not where we want to end up....

I'm less certain a.) that we're discussing a serious and frequent rules problem, and b.) how to resolve it.....

Not my logic, Troy's logic:

I must be having comprehension issues again. Are you saying that, given a COF with an array that must be engaged only from box A, and a single target that must be engaged only from box B, that it would be leagal to engage the array from box A, step out of the box, jump toward box B, and engage the target before touching the ground? Or do you mean that you would need to land in the box for the shots to be legal?

Yes. You do not need to land in "B" for the shots to be legal, as long as you are not touching the ground or any other object outside of box B.

And, just for clarity, shooting while leaping is, I suspect, pretty rare, but shooting while moving isn't, and there are times when you are entering a designated shooting area and both feet could be off the ground.

Here's the complete rule:

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching

the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a

Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an

object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or

Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any

target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one

procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while

faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots

while faulting.

There is no rule in the book about what constitutes being "in" a box, only what constitutes being out of a box (or faulting a line). A more common specific example would be a competitor who is running into a shooting area (box), and has both feet off the ground when he fires his first shot. This is not a fault, since he's not touching outside the designated shooting area and firing a shot. Since there is no "in the box" definition, he is in the box as long as he's not touching outside.

Hope this helps.

Troy

I always thought you needed to touch the frame or inside the box before you were in it.

[Singlestack]

I always thought you needed to touch the frame or inside the box before you were in it.

+1

One would think the same logic would apply to leaving as entering. If you have not touched outside the box, you have not left. If you have not touched inside the box, you have not entered.

[Flexmoney]

I was joking about the hovering.

I know. But, Nik was still in hover mode. mhs brings up the drama that could happen.

Not having a clearcut rule e.g. "You are not in the box until making physical contact with a border of the box or its interior." leads to a bunch of confusion.

[rgkeller]

I always thought you needed to touch the frame or inside the box before you were in it.

+1

One would think the same logic would apply to leaving as entering. If you have not touched outside the box, you have not left. If you have not touched inside the box, you have not entered.

exactly

[Nik Habicht]

I always thought you needed to touch the frame or inside the box before you were in it.

+1

One would think the same logic would apply to leaving as entering. If you have not touched outside the box, you have not left. If you have not touched inside the box, you have not entered.

exactly

To really make that true, let's look at how we score those. If someone leaps or falls out of the box/FFZ --- as Kyle was wont to do at the 04 Nats --- we don't penalize the shooter for shots fired while in the air. In the same way, I'm o.k. with shooters firing shots while on their way into the box --- as long as after firing at least one foot lands in. (We already have rules to deal with shots fired while faulting and touching the ground.) Requiring at least one foot to land in the box/FFZ eliminates the opportunity to run "wherever" in the bay and shoot while jumping.....

Forcing people to establish a position (set foot in) before firing is certainly workable too, and may be easier to codify.....

[rgkeller]

Forcing people to establish a position (set foot in) before firing is certainly workable too, and may be easier to codify.....

And it has the added advantage of being able to use English language words and syntax in their normally grammatically correct manner.

[LPatterson]

Forcing people to establish a position (set foot in) before firing is certainly workable too, and may be easier to codify.....

And it has the added advantage of being able to use English language words and syntax in their normally grammatically correct manner.

As confused as I have become trying to make sense of exactly how people want a change written, I am not sure that 'normally grammatically correct' is correct grammar.

[rgkeller]

two adverbs modifying the adjective "correct"

so, correct but confusing

perfect for a USPSA rule

[LPatterson]

I knew being asked to leave high school would come back and bite me some time. Should have spent more time on the adverbs and adjectives instead of chasing girls.

[Jim Norman]

I mean really...

This is getting into a quantum mechanics deal where you are in more than one place at the same time.

I would say that it should work like this:

1. You establish your presence in a box by stepping into the box with no part of your body grounded outside of it.

2. You are considered to be in the box until you ground yourself outside of the box.

3. You establish your presence outside of the box by stepping out of the box with no part of your body grounded inside of it.

4. No hovering is recognized unless your name is Elroy Jetson or Dash Riprock.

Jack

I would agree with 1, 2, and MAYBE 4, however is in error. You establish 'Out of the Box' as soon as any part of your body touches down outside, regardless of how much of your body firmly grounded in the box.

Jim