Both Feet in the Air Fault line Question

[wide45]

One thing to consider if you are a course designer--if you want your targets shot from a particular spot, then make them only available from that spot.

Troy

Ah, but what happens when the competitor runs out the front of the shooting area to within a few feet of the targets, and while leaping like a ballerina shoots them all.

Actually, I would not expect to see a respectable hit factor with that method, but excepting steel, it should be legal.

[Nik Habicht]

One thing to consider if you are a course designer--if you want your targets shot from a particular spot, then make them only available from that spot.

Troy

Ah, but what happens when the competitor runs out the front of the shooting area to within a few feet of the targets, and while leaping like a ballerina shoots them all.

Actually, I would not expect to see a respectable hit factor with that method, but excepting steel, it should be legal.

Right up to the moment the RM declares it a forbidden action and orders a reshoot......

....or until someone invokes 10.6.1.....

[rgkeller]

No disrespect, but I have a hard time buying the above until I see an official NROI ruling.

This rule has not changed in a very long time. Shooting with both feet off the ground has not been a problem.

That is not the issue. The issue is that shooting with both feet off the ground satisfies a stage requirement that the competitor shoot from a box in which he has never set foot.

[Flexmoney]

No disrespect, but I have a hard time buying the above until I see an official NROI ruling.

Not a problem. I'm writing a note to to John and the rest of the instructor corps right now. We'll discuss it, but it's been beat to death over the years. I didn't make this up--it's what the rule says. If you can find a rule in the book that defines what "in the box" means, other than the one I cited (which, granted, defines what "in the box" means by defining what out of the box means), please cite it.

The problem here is that most people are used to running freestyle stages, where there are no boxes, but there is (usually) a defined shooting area, so "out of the box" is the main question that arises. Classifiers with movement between boxes are kind of scarce, so the question doesn't come up often. I can't find anything that says that once you've touched outside a fault line or box that you can't fire a shot without penalty, as long as you aren't touching the ground or another object. Might bring a whole new aspect to freestyle--the "lords a leapin'" stage or something similar...

One thing to consider if you are a course designer--if you want your targets shot from a particular spot, then make them only available from that spot.

Troy

Troy,

I fell out on that last bit too. Let me see if I can make a differentiation.

I think what you are describing would not be an issue of faulting the line. But, I do think it would come to be an issue of not following the procedure.

I don't see how you can shoot "from box B" unless and until you have established yourself within Box B. (which, I feel, would require at least one point of contact)

So, we probably need to clarify what constitutes getting "into" the box...to go along with what we know about leaving the box.

(And, I fully agree that non-freestyle sucks and stage design answers are...by far...the best solution. But, we are dealing with "box talk"...and thus, Level I exemptions. Given that, I doubt we can hope for answers through props, nor can we expect bullet-proof writing of stage descriptions.)

[rgkeller]

CM99-10 is a good example that defines the issue for the NROI.

"From Box A engage only T1-T3 with two rounds each.

From Box B engage only T4-T6 with two rounds each. Start

in either Box A or Box B. Upon start signal, from the starting

box engage the appropriate targets. Move to the remaining

box and engage the appropriate targets."

Permitting shots fired before entering the second box - with neither foot touching the ground - seems to me to be torturning the English language. But I guess that depends on what your definition of "move to" and "from" is.

Edited December 21, 2009 by rgkeller

[Nik Habicht]

CM99-10 is a good example that defines the issue for the NROI.

"From Box A engage only T1-T3 with two rounds each.

From Box B engage only T4-T6 with two rounds each. Start

in either Box A or Box B. Upon start signal, from the starting

box engage the appropriate targets. Move to the remaining

box and engage the appropriate targets."

Permitting shots fired before entering the second box - with neither foot touching the ground - seems to me to be torturning the English language. But I guess that depends on what your definition of "move to" and "from" is.

O.K. --- how about one procedural for not following the course description by moving to the second box. Covered by the current rules. Avoidable if one moves over after firing the last and unloads and shows clear in the other box.....

Now realistically: On how many stages will this be the winning technique? How many of you are planning on practicing this? The rulebook could be expanded to accommodate every "What if" scenario the membership could come up with --- but why? For most of those scenarios, even if someone employs it, it won't matter.....

(Addressing the Classifier part: If someone chose to shoot 99-10 that way, and I was asked to rule on the situation, I'd let the attempt stand for match score, but I wouldn't forward it to USPSA for classification, as we have a responsibility to protect the integrity of classifiers.)

[rgkeller]

Shooting BEFORE entering a shooting box cuts time over the technique of shooting with one foot in the box and one foot in the air.

The "both feet in the air" technique may or may not be useful to a particular shooter. But, IMO, until the shooter has some part of his body touching the ground inside the box, that shooter is not engaging targets "from" the box and has not "moved to" the box.

I await the ruling of the NROI.

And, IMO, the rulebook SHOULD define the matter specifically.

[wide45]

I maintain my position on this.

This rule has not changed in a very long time. Shooting with both feet off the ground has not been a problem.

I've been in this sport since '93. The rule was the same, and most of us knew what it meant.

Have never seen it be a problem, and I'll bet you have not.

Could someone take advantage of a bad stage design? Sure, and they should. Lets not encourage bad stages.

[mhs]

O.K. --- how about one procedural for not following the course description by moving to the second box. Covered by the current rules. Avoidable if one moves over after firing the last and unloads and shows clear in the other box.....

If Troy's interpretation is correct, jumping into the air while not touching any part of the stage is moving into the second box. And all the others. So no proceedural. We need to realize that boxes are not tangible physical things, but what we are in if we are not specifically outside of them. I think.

[Flexmoney]

This summer, one of my Ohio Match Directors asked me about jumping into the air and shooting like what we are talking about. (not leaving a shooting area or box...just jumping so that he wasn't touching)

So...that makes about once(lol)...but it did come up.

[Chills1994]

^^^ well Flex, leave it to me to come up with some off the wall hypothetical question.

slight thread drift ahead... It was here on this very forum that I heard about a shooter finishing a stage, and then stepping out of the shooting box, just kinda wandering around, kinda aimlessly with the gun still in his hands, all before the RO could issue the "IFFFFF!!! You are finished, unload and show clear!" command .

My guess is he was waiting for the RO to interfere with him so he could get a reshoot.

So after I first learned of that incident, I don't put anything past shooters anymore.

[Nik Habicht]

O.K. --- how about one procedural for not following the course description by moving to the second box. Covered by the current rules. Avoidable if one moves over after firing the last and unloads and shows clear in the other box.....

If Troy's interpretation is correct, jumping into the air while not touching any part of the stage is moving into the second box. And all the others. So no proceedural. We need to realize that boxes are not tangible physical things, but what we are in if we are not specifically outside of them. I think.

Just keep in mind --- if you're running a match --- that classifiers aren't supposed to be gamed. So, if it's in the context of the classifier, either the shooter does it straight up, or the score shouldn't be sent in/should be flagged by the MD or SC....

[Flexmoney]

Nik, I don't think I'd run a classifier one way for the match, but not send it in for a classifier score.

Classifiers need to follow the rules to. If it's not legal, lets bring that up and get it pulled from the book, or tweaked.

[twodownzero]

I'm really surprised that this went 5 pages. I haven't been doing this THAT long, and I've already observed a few grand masters who do exactly what we're talking about.

This is a freestyle sport that encourages "gaming" the rules. What the OP describes is, as has been demonstrated, entirely legal and even quite common for some shooters. I've even seen a guy lean/jump toward the outward side of the box, shoot, and land "out"--after he's already made his shots.

[Nik Habicht]

Nik, I don't think I'd run a classifier one way for the match, but not send it in for a classifier score.

Classifiers need to follow the rules to. If it's not legal, lets bring that up and get it pulled from the book, or tweaked.

Classifiers are not to be gamed ---- if they say move to Box B, they're not talking about jumping in the air......

For the moment those classifiers are still in the book. If you're going to run them, you have an obligation to see that they're run correctly. It's really no different from throwing out a classifier because you discover a set-up error.....

And in another few years, the old box classifiers will mostly disappear, as new classifiers get released....

[Flexmoney]

Nik, I don't think I'd run a classifier one way for the match, but not send it in for a classifier score.

Classifiers need to follow the rules to. If it's not legal, lets bring that up and get it pulled from the book, or tweaked.

Classifiers are not to be gamed ---- if they say move to Box B, they're not talking about jumping in the air......

For the moment those classifiers are still in the book. If you're going to run them, you have an obligation to see that they're run correctly. It's really no different from throwing out a classifier because you discover a set-up error.....

And in another few years, the old box classifiers will mostly disappear, as new classifiers get released....

Oh, I agree with you. Shooting from Box B doesn't mean jumping in the air.

I just don't think you can have it both ways.

[Chills1994]

[murkish]

Nik, I don't think I'd run a classifier one way for the match, but not send it in for a classifier score.

Classifiers need to follow the rules to. If it's not legal, lets bring that up and get it pulled from the book, or tweaked.

Classifiers are not to be gamed ---- if they say move to Box B, they're not talking about jumping in the air......

For the moment those classifiers are still in the book. If you're going to run them, you have an obligation to see that they're run correctly. It's really no different from throwing out a classifier because you discover a set-up error.....

And in another few years, the old box classifiers will mostly disappear, as new classifiers get released....

Oh, I agree with you. Shooting from Box B doesn't mean jumping in the air.

I just don't think you can have it both ways.

I mean really...

This is getting into a quantum mechanics deal where you are in more than one place at the same time.

I would say that it should work like this:

1. You establish your presence in a box by stepping into the box with no part of your body grounded outside of it.

2. You are considered to be in the box until you ground yourself outside of the box.

3. You establish your presence outside of the box by stepping out of the box with no part of your body grounded inside of it.

4. No hovering is recognized unless your name is Elroy Jetson or Dash Riprock.

Jack

[Nik Habicht]

Nik, I don't think I'd run a classifier one way for the match, but not send it in for a classifier score.

Classifiers need to follow the rules to. If it's not legal, lets bring that up and get it pulled from the book, or tweaked.

Classifiers are not to be gamed ---- if they say move to Box B, they're not talking about jumping in the air......

For the moment those classifiers are still in the book. If you're going to run them, you have an obligation to see that they're run correctly. It's really no different from throwing out a classifier because you discover a set-up error.....

And in another few years, the old box classifiers will mostly disappear, as new classifiers get released....

Oh, I agree with you. Shooting from Box B doesn't mean jumping in the air.

I just don't think you can have it both ways.

Agreed on both points.....

[Nik Habicht]

Nik, I don't think I'd run a classifier one way for the match, but not send it in for a classifier score.

Classifiers need to follow the rules to. If it's not legal, lets bring that up and get it pulled from the book, or tweaked.

Classifiers are not to be gamed ---- if they say move to Box B, they're not talking about jumping in the air......

For the moment those classifiers are still in the book. If you're going to run them, you have an obligation to see that they're run correctly. It's really no different from throwing out a classifier because you discover a set-up error.....

And in another few years, the old box classifiers will mostly disappear, as new classifiers get released....

Oh, I agree with you. Shooting from Box B doesn't mean jumping in the air.

I just don't think you can have it both ways.

I mean really...

This is getting into a quantum mechanics deal where you are in more than one place at the same time.

I would say that it should work like this:

1. You establish your presence in a box by stepping into the box with no part of your body grounded outside of it.

2. You are considered to be in the box until you ground yourself outside of the box.

3. You establish your presence outside of the box by stepping out of the box with no part of your body grounded inside of it.

4. No hovering is recognized unless your name is Elroy Jetson or Dash Riprock.

Jack

I'm even perfectly o.k. with shooter's firing in the air prior to landing in the box -- i.e. both feet in the air, first foot to touch down touches inside the box.....

Other than classifiers, and as start boxes, I'd like stage designers to not use boxes....

[Flexmoney]

This is getting into a quantum mechanics deal where you are in more than one place at the same time.

I would say that it should work like this:

1. You establish your presence in a box by stepping into the box with no part of your body grounded outside of it.

2. You are considered to be in the box until you ground yourself outside of the box.

3. You establish your presence outside of the box by stepping out of the box with no part of your body grounded inside of it.

4. No hovering is recognized unless your name is Elroy Jetson or Dash Riprock.

Jack

Sounds pretty good. I would be all for losing the "hovering" (point 4). That way it is on the shooter to ensure they get a foot down to establish their location. (I can see that being less drama.)

[mhs]

I'm even perfectly o.k. with shooter's firing in the air prior to landing in the box -- i.e. both feet in the air, first foot to touch down touches inside the box.....

So if two shooters shoot the stage the same way, with identical leaps to the box, but one, after firing his airborn shots leans back, and touches down outside the box with has back foot; and the other leans forwards after firing his shots, and touches inside the box with his front foot; you would penalize the first and not the second? I don't think it's legal to penalize after the fact. If the two shooters are doing the same thing when the shots are fired the penalty or lack thereof should be the same.

Not having a clearcut rule e.g. "You are not in the box until making physical contact with a border of the box or its interior." leads to a bunch of confusion.

[Nik Habicht]

I'm even perfectly o.k. with shooter's firing in the air prior to landing in the box -- i.e. both feet in the air, first foot to touch down touches inside the box.....

So if two shooters shoot the stage the same way, with identical leaps to the box, but one, after firing his airborn shots leans back, and touches down outside the box with has back foot; and the other leans forwards after firing his shots, and touches inside the box with his front foot; you would penalize the first and not the second? I don't think it's legal to penalize after the fact. If the two shooters are doing the same thing when the shots are fired the penalty or lack thereof should be the same.

Not having a clearcut rule e.g. "You are not in the box until making physical contact with a border of the box or its interior." leads to a bunch of confusion.

I'm saying it's a risk --- firing before you're in the box. Touch down inside, no problem, no fault. Touch down outside first, well you were never in, so procedural, or if it was a significant advantage, procedural per shot fired....

Really no different than calling other foot faults....

[murkish]

This is getting into a quantum mechanics deal where you are in more than one place at the same time.

I would say that it should work like this:

1. You establish your presence in a box by stepping into the box with no part of your body grounded outside of it.

2. You are considered to be in the box until you ground yourself outside of the box.

3. You establish your presence outside of the box by stepping out of the box with no part of your body grounded inside of it.

4. No hovering is recognized unless your name is Elroy Jetson or Dash Riprock.

Jack

Sounds pretty good. I would be all for losing the "hovering" (point 4). That way it is on the shooter to ensure they get a foot down to establish their location. (I can see that being less drama.)

I was joking about the hovering.

[mhs]

I'm even perfectly o.k. with shooter's firing in the air prior to landing in the box -- i.e. both feet in the air, first foot to touch down touches inside the box.....

So if two shooters shoot the stage the same way, with identical leaps to the box, but one, after firing his airborn shots leans back, and touches down outside the box with has back foot; and the other leans forwards after firing his shots, and touches inside the box with his front foot; you would penalize the first and not the second? I don't think it's legal to penalize after the fact. If the two shooters are doing the same thing when the shots are fired the penalty or lack thereof should be the same.

Not having a clearcut rule e.g. "You are not in the box until making physical contact with a border of the box or its interior." leads to a bunch of confusion.

I'm saying it's a risk --- firing before you're in the box. Touch down inside, no problem, no fault. Touch down outside first, well you were never in, so procedural, or if it was a significant advantage, procedural per shot fired....

Really no different than calling other foot faults....

Most (all?) foot faults I've called and seen called are based on where the foot is as the shot is being fired. This would be unique in that it would be a fault based on something that would occur after the shot was fired.