kgunz11 Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 I thought I read somewhere that in order for a SS gun to be USPSA SS Division legal it had to be of original design. No slide lightening, and it's profile and contours have to be like some unit that has at least 500 units produced. What about a gun that had no cocking serrations, just wells? I'm trying to figure out what I can do and still be Division compliant. I want to use a few of Rich's guns for example, I hope he doesn't mind. He's probably the most talented SS guy I know of. Gun #1, is it SS legal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted November 3, 2009 Author Share Posted November 3, 2009 Is gun #2 legal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted November 3, 2009 Author Share Posted November 3, 2009 #3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xfactor Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 (edited) Nevermind - I just realized we were in the IDPA rules section... I posted a very helpful write-up about USPSA SS rules. Edited November 3, 2009 by Xfactor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted November 3, 2009 Author Share Posted November 3, 2009 But there's not a mass produced slide that has a well with no cocking serrations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted November 3, 2009 Author Share Posted November 3, 2009 Oops, holy crap. I'm going to try and get a Mod to move the topic to the USPSA rules forum... which is where I thought I was at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 I tried to post as the post got moved....very weird! Anywho, other than the high power cuts on Marc Morgantti's gun I think they are all legal. I'm wondering if there was a minimum weight in SS division if these questions would go away? There are just to many cocking serrations out there and the gunsmiths have to ask if they want to make different from typical serrations on guns if the gun will be legal. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bofe954 Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 #3 has a cut similar to a Browning High Power (in front). I swear I saw a ruling posted on this forum that said that it was OK. I know Wilson makes a 1911 with that cut factory. There are a LOT of factory slide profiles, look at the Sig GSR and the new PC Smith 9mm. The custom serrations are hard to say. Maybe email Amidon. I couldn't see anyone going after someone about serrations, but I think by the written rule, you could. I also think that at some point if you did not regulate it you could have real big, real deep serrations used to tune slide weight. Then you'd have to argue intent. I am curious too. I was thinking about a tri topped slide with the serrations like Dettlehouser does on the top, but wondered about legality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 With all due respect to everyone involved, I sometimes wonder why we have the DNROI. While the forum can provide information and opinions the DNROI can provide a definite answer. Why not ask him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Wasn't that one recently in Front Sight ? I am sure we have answered it here before, as well. Weak search-foo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted November 3, 2009 Author Share Posted November 3, 2009 I did a search and found all kinds of information not pertinent to what I was looking for. Most of it people trying to figure out how to make weight and the suggestions were in guide rods and lightening the frame under the grip panels. I am trying to find something specific to what we are allowed to cut or machine in the slide. Gun #1 has some slide lightening on the sides of the gun and top. Gun #2 has a "snake belly" cut on the top of the slide. Gun #3 has what appears to be an American flag in the rear serrations. My goal is not to do something that would be considered a "competitive advantage". As a matter of fact, in my opinion, it could be argued it is a disadvantage, but at the same point it would involve removing material from the slide. I like the look of NO cocking serrations, so if I remove them, is that illegal? I'll pass this question on to Amidon. The rules state: •Slide lightening, cuts, ports, or any milling deemed to provide a competitive advantage. •Slide – milling permitted only to duplicate a mass-produced factory slide available to the general public or as required to insert sights. Special conditions: — Only 1911 production type pistols. Must be available to the general public and have their basis in the original 1911 service pistol as designed by John M. Browning. Pistols made from components that duplicate the factory originals are acceptable. Frames must be metal. I hope I'm not the only one that can find this a little confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Technically, I think any of the above guns would not be legal, just due to the rule that they must "duplicate" factory cuts. In practice, I can't see #2 being disallowed just because of the detail cuts. I could see #1 or #3 not being legal because of the thinning in front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Also, I wouldn't mill a slide to remove the serrations, that would make it a bunch lighter. I would however say that a bald slide without serrations would be ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 I did a search and found all kinds of information not pertinent to what I was looking for.... I am trying to find something specific to what we are allowed to cut or machine in the slide. Weak search-foo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 I think John Amidon covered the "Hi Power" style cut in a recent Front Sight. Gary Stevens is correct, John is the one to check with, all others are only opinions. By the way, #3 should be illegal due to gaudy grips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted November 3, 2009 Author Share Posted November 3, 2009 Technically, I think any of the above guns would not be legal, just due to the rule that they must "duplicate" factory cuts.In practice, I can't see #2 being disallowed just because of the detail cuts. I could see #1 or #3 not being legal because of the thinning in front. I agree Matt, but how can you say 1 is ok and not any of the others, and provide fair rules for everyone. That's why I'm wanting clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 When I wrote the rule on this it was in an attempt to define more or less what we didn't want. That was the typical "Limited" gun look with lightening cuts such as slots or holes or whatever. The idea was to remove the perception that you had to have a "race" gun to compete in Single Stack. Most of what I see is more cosmetic and an attempt to put a personal signature on a shooters gun. I sort of like that also. However, as with anything in our sport, the devil is in the details. Every gunsmith wants to put their own touch on their gun. It draws attention to the gun and ultimately leads back to the builder for future business. These are sticky issues and while somewhat trivial in some respects do have the potential to have widespread impact on the division at some future point. Not an easy task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted November 4, 2009 Author Share Posted November 4, 2009 Gary, you have touched on the EXACT reason for my questioning. To be able to put a purely cosmetic touch on guns that I do here in the shop that have nice clean lines that people enjoy looking at and shooting. Something that makes them smile every time they pull it out at the range. My goal is not slots or holes, simply to do something cosmetic and different, while putting my own personal touch on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterB Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 The slide profile on #1 looks like the S&W Peformance center DK model in 38 super which is legal but close to the weight limit. I have asked to be sure. However, I am thinking the light rail could be an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bofe954 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Please post back on what you find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 My goal is not slots or holes, simply to do something cosmetic and different, while putting my own personal touch on them. •Slide – milling permitted only to duplicate a mass-produced factory slide available to the general public or as required to insert sights. Sounds like you are in conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 From the Gary, when the rules came down: I am going to leave this one to the DNROI as he has been sent the original question. I will say though that the original intent was to find a feature or features produced on a factory slide, generally available to the public. This way we would not have a continous series of questions about is this OK or that OK. Basically if you could find it on a factory produced slide, generally available to the public, it would be OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted November 4, 2009 Author Share Posted November 4, 2009 I have never seen a factory available tri-topped gun, so all of those are illegal. What about the USPSA signature SS gun? Were enough of those made to make the slide serrations on it legal? So, serrations are on guns factory produced and available to the public. Non-serrated slides are on factory guns available to the public. As long as I do or do not have serrations, I should be legal. It doesn't say anywhere mine has to be exactly like theirs. So if I have serrations for cocking the gun, or have no serrations for cocking the gun, both are available on factory produced slides. I guess we'll see what Amidon says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bofe954 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 SVI sells tri top single stacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted November 4, 2009 Author Share Posted November 4, 2009 But are they considered "mass produced"? STI sells a tri-topped SS gun too, but it's a special order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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