ErikW Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 I've been obsessing about my Limited gun that has too much muzzle flip for me. All along I've been thinking it has to do with the weight removed from its slide. Is it possible the extra muzzle flip* could be something else like barrel fit or link length that causes the gun to unlock earlier or later? How about the mainspring? Firing pin stop shape? * What I call extra could be the same amount of muzzle flip I'm used to in my other gun, but timed differently. These are near-identical guns built with near-identical parts by the same gunsmith. The lightened STI slab-slided gun flips more than the unlightened Caspian slab-sided gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Eric, I'm no gunsmith. That being said, let me ask a question that you have probably taken care of. What is your load? My understanding is that a larger, slower round (such as a 200 gr in .40 S&W) will have a lot more phyiscal upward "flip" than a smaller, faster round (165 gr) which has more straight back recoil. It still doesn't answer the question about parts fit....... FWIW Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Jones Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Eric,I'm no gunsmith. That being said, let me ask a question that you have probably taken care of. What is your load? My understanding is that a larger, slower round (such as a 200 gr in .40 S&W) will have a lot more phyiscal upward "flip" than a smaller, faster round (165 gr) which has more straight back recoil. It still doesn't answer the question about parts fit....... FWIW Dennis Heavier bullet equals less flip, IF loaded to same power factor, NOT same velocity. Try some 200's in a 45, then try some 255's..............huge difference......... Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Erik....You ARE definitely obsessing way too much about this! Only way to fix this is to sell the gun to me immediately! Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBChaffin Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Erik, I am no expert, but I feel pretty certain that the firing pin stop and mainspring have a large effect on flip, as does recoil spring weight to a lesser extent. An EGW squared off stop (or stop with a smaller radius) and heavier mainspring will keep the slide in battery longer, and I would think make the gun flip more as it bleeds off more energy overcoming the effort needed to cock the hammer. Less leverage with the small radius contacting the hammer lower and a heavier mainspring causing the extra effort. Then again, maybe a firing pin stop with a large radius and a lighter mainspring would allow the slide to hit harder at the end of its travel and would cause the flip at that point. (I am thinking of those ultra slow-mo german films of guns firing, where the flip seemed to come almost completely from the slide reaching the end of its stroke.) I think the key might be what you said about the flip possible being the same (or very similar) but the timing of the flip is different. If they have identical firing pin stops, mainsprings, and recoil springs, the lighter slide should be unlocking sooner and/or hitting back harder. Maybe a heavier mainspring or smaller radius stop would help? FWIW, I really like a larger radius stop (SV factory stop) and a light mainspring (17lb. ISMI with 1.5-2 coils cut off) in my SV. I am also down to a 10lb. recoil spring (from a 12). The gun is heavy (Full dustcover, tungsten rod and Gram's 6 oz. magwell) with a three sided slide that is not ultra light but isn't as heavy as most S_I's I'd guess, but it is soft and flat shooting. I actually tried an 8lb. recoil spring and the gun seemed even flatter but it was hitting back pretty hard in the palm. I went back to the Wolff 10 and am happy for the moment. I have an ISMI 10 and 11 to play with eventually. Sorry, I'm just thinking out loud. I hope it is of some use. Keep us updated if you start changing parts and let us know how it goes. Bryant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted November 27, 2003 Share Posted November 27, 2003 Looking for that glock-like recoil feeling I think I'm gonna settle on my combo for now, a 19# mainspring and an 11# recoil with a close-to-square fp stop. God knows I've tried too may different combos I think I should finally settle on one...and practice. My thouhgts were running the same lines as DBC about the where the flip comes from. And yes those german slow mo shots did help reinforce the thoughts. The biggest flip comes from the slide hitting the frame. With a lightened slide, I'd figure a heavier (probably in the 14#) recoil spring is in order. Also you may want to use a "straight" recoil spring and not the variable types. Since replacing mainsprings is more work, try dropping a 20#'er in there before experimenting with the recoil spring. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Carter Posted November 27, 2003 Share Posted November 27, 2003 Look at the "flats" on both barrels, I bet the flat on the Caspian slide gun is longer. The flat is the part of the barrel foot between where it links down and stops in battery. The affect is keeping the slide and frame together just a little longer, also look at the length of the links, a longer link does the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted November 27, 2003 Share Posted November 27, 2003 I wonder if anybody has ever done this to a 1911 gun? Duct-tape the slide to the frame then fire a single shot. How much recoil flip will it generate compared to the free-moving slide? I'm thinking the same effect on revolvers but the platform differences wouldn't probably be a comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted November 27, 2003 Share Posted November 27, 2003 Rather than use Duct tape I think you could modify an old thumb safety to lock the slide. If I remember correctly some of the old silenced .45s locked the breech by holding the thumb safety up in the slide cutout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted November 27, 2003 Share Posted November 27, 2003 Any time you fire a handgun a certain amount of energy is produced. The shooter normally feels this in one of two ways. Either though muzzle flip or rearward recoil. It is very possible to tune the gun to produce a desired feel, although the amount of energy will stay the same (assuming the same load). In other words as you work to reduce rearward recoil, you are going to feel more muzzle flip. For example if you reduce the slide weight you will generally reduce muzzle flip, but because of the need for a heavier weight recoil spring you will usually get more muzzle dip. Both will cause the front sight to move and will normally be preceived by the shooter as muzzle "flip". However what you do to reduce them is completely different. You can effect this balance between muzzle flip/dip and rearward recoil thru various means which include changing recoil springs, main springs, different weight barrels, slides and guide rods, moving weight back and forth along the bore axis of the gun, and changing the lock up timing mechnically. This can be done by fitting the barrel higher or lower, different length barrel links, different contour firing pin stops, and the cut on the lower barrel lug. Be aware that all of these changes will affect the timing to a certain degree and this will require other changes to balance things back out. Additionally bullet weights and burning rates of your powder will also influence the feel of the gun. Finally be sure you understand what you shoot best with. Most of the guns I have built are designed to have a nice balance between muzzle flip and rearward recoil. However the guns I build for myself are designed for something completely different. I don't really care how much of either I get, my concern is in cycle time. I will live with extra recoil/muzzle flip IF the gun cycles very fast and settles back to the orginal point of aim. I want the recoil event to be of the absolutely shortest time possible. As such I use guns (both USPSA and IDPA) that are short and light, and I load to a higher power factor then most people. My IDPA gun is probably the best example. In SSP I use a Glock 17 that has the lightest slide and barrel that I can legally use, and I load it to about a 145-150 PF. This gives me a gun that has a lot of recoil compared to most other guns, but it cycles thru the recoil event and back on target faster allowing me to break the second shot as soon as I am ready, not when the gun is ready. Most people find the combination way to snappy, but but it works for me. Figure out exactly what you want then find a pistolsmith who really understands a competition pistol and how to tune one, and start playing around. You will be amazed at how much you can tune the feel of a well built pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 22, 2004 Author Share Posted January 22, 2004 I'm thinking the muzzle flip is predominantly at the end of the rearward slide stroke. I'm going to put in a guide rod buffer in an attempt to shorten the stroke and decrease muzzle flip. Or timing. Or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Erik, my Kimber .45 is set up with a 17# mainspring and an 11# recoil spring. It is a very flat shooting gun. The one thing that really seems to help is the .200" Hiett shock buff. If I use a .090" Hiett or one of the harder brands I notice more flip. The .200" Hiett helped to take a lot of the flip out of my .40 Kimber also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 I'm with Larry, sell the gun and built a duplicate of the "A" gun, except sell the gun to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted February 7, 2004 Author Share Posted February 7, 2004 (I am thinking of those ultra slow-mo german films of guns firing, where the flip seemed to come almost completely from the slide reaching the end of its stroke.) This might shock some people, but I'm going to try a buffer on a steel guide rod to limit the slide travel. I've got a pack of Wilson blue buffers, which look pretty thick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianH Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Put TWO in there and a extra long ejector. It'll cycle FAST too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 If you guys are interested there are a bunch of techie stuff HERE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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