Shooting an IDPA target at 35 yards

[Duane Thomas]

So do you do this to sight in your gun at that distance or just to see the grouping at that distance?

The idea behind the neck hold at distance is that it's a very definite aiming point, and a narrow aiming point (especially on something like a B-27 where it's the narrowest point on the target). Thus you set your sights so that, when aiming at the neck, the bullets hit low, in the center of the highest scoring area, and you can shoot a tighter group and more points. For PPC shooting that makes sense. For what we do in IDPA I want the bullets impacting right where the sights are.

Really, 35 yards is not that long a shot, and there's no reason you can't hit the 8" wide -0 circle at that distance without that sort of trick.

[Flexmoney]

Is it possible to zero one's pistol if it has fixed sights?

It is certainly possible to KNOW your zero(es).

Do you know?

Even better, do you absolutely know where you (you/gun/ammo) hit, in 5y increments? If you don't, you are operating/deciding without information. And, it is information that is easy to get. So it is rather silly not to know.

I suggest using a target that gives real feedback (and a decent aiming reference), like this one:

http://mytargets.com/target102gs%20grid%20...re%20center.pdf

Print off a bunch and use a different one for groups at each distance (in 5y increments).

[ben b.]

For me, that represents a hardware solution for a software problem.

How do we know it's a software problem and not a hardware problem?

Best odds are that the long shots are being pulled.

[Duane Thomas]

How so? He'd never shot the gun at 35 yards before. How do we know what the problem was? Maybe it was as simple as sights that, while good enough in close, were off at distance. Maybe not. We don't know.

Of course, the answer would be to bench the gun at 35 yards and cut out as much as possible of any potential human error factor. That might answer the question. Having said that, with his match just three days away when the OP posted his question, correcting a potential software problem (and again, we don't know that's the problem) was probably not going to happen in time. Installing a shorter front sight, OTOH, easily could have.

Sorry, Frank, didn't notice the "match on October 17th" part of your first post. That match, and stage, are now history. How did you approach getting ready for that stage, and how did it go?

[Allgoodhits]

The New Mexico State IDPA match will be held October 17 in Las Cruces, NM. One of the stages will have an IDPA target at 35 yards. I was out at the range today practicing at approximately 30 yards using Atlanta Arms and Ammo 147g 9mm ammo which I plan on using in the actual match. Shooting a CZ SP01 Phantom. I was aiming at chest level and most of the shots were going into the -1 zone below the '0' zone. I raised my aim almost to the neck of the target and most of the shots did go into the '0' zone. Question: At 35 yards should I be aiming at the head of the target to hit the '0' zone? Thanks

Having read all the posts and opinions, I went back and reread your question and statement. Unless and until you have figured out whether you have a "zero" issue at near or far applications with your particular equipment, then I think you have answered your own question.

You state that "if" you hold chest level most shots at 30yds are below the -0 ring, but if you hold almost to the neck then most shots go into the -0 ring.

Based on your own analysis it appears if no evidence to the contrary has been discovered by you with your equipment and ammo, then I wouls suspect to get the result you want, you will have to hold where you need to hold in order to get that result. As was mentioned, we are now post the match date. Where did you hold, and what was the result?

[Boats]

Holding off for a more precise point of aim on the target sounds good but in Silhouette were you shoot at irregular shaped targets it has not been a successful strategy. Will hear often at matches somebody has there rifle sighted for the rams head & horn with the bullets impacting lower and offside to hit center of mass.

Match over never see anybody using that strategy do well. Best zero is bullet impacting exactly were your sights are set. Gives you instant feedback see the picture hole ought to be exactly were you broke the shot. Only place I have ever seen it work is bullseye targets with a post sight. Even there I have my doubts bottom of the bull hold is the right one to use.

Boats

[Hi-Power Jack]

I was out at the range today practicing at approximately 30 yards using Atlanta Arms and Ammo 147g 9mm ammo which I plan on using in the actual match. Shooting a CZ SP01 Phantom. I was aiming at chest level and most of the shots were going into the -1 zone below the '0' zone.

How large is the group you're shooting at 30 yards?

If it's larger than 6" x 6" then it's either your or the gun or the ammo.

If it's a nice sized consistent group, then it is a different problem -

see all the other answers.

How large is your group at 18 yards, by the way? Should be less than

4" x 4" if you're doing everything correctly, I would guess?

[Jane]

As far as the "software" argument... I know that holds true for me.

When I SO people on the classifier, which only has 20 yard shots, I caution them to "aim high" on stage 3... not because of ballistic issues but because of psychological ones.

Some posters in this thread have spoken of putting their sights on the top of the down-zero ring at 35 yards. Great if your eyes are good enough for that and you're patient enough to be shooting with "bullseye" accuracy in an IDPA match.

But I think for many people, particularly under time pressure, the tendency at distances of 20 or more yards is to aim at the center of the target.

And the zero ring sits higher - the center of an IDPA target "body" will put you down 1 if you hit it accurately.

YMMV

Edited October 22, 2009 by Jane

[Boats]

Jane,

Exactly you need to sight in on the target that's going to be scored nothing else will do. I ofen see IDPA shooters with nice center of paper groups that give downs because of being too low.

Boats

[John Z Sr]

I use a practice drill from Sam Conway's book that might help. Basically it's a warmup drill that is "Bill Drills" at 5,10,15 20, 25,30,35 yards. 6 shots on the same target timed. You can check your draw/splits and hits at the various distances and it gives you a good idea about how distance effects the shots.

[Boats]

One reason people shoot low at distance on the IDPA target is the "0" is not center of mass. It's higher so a centered shot is a low shot score wise. Up close you can see the perforations and hold on the zero Might not think you are holding different but most cases that's whats going on.

Best remedy is to shoot groups at longer distance on the actual target.

Boats

[Steve Koski]

I shot an IDPA target yesterday at 70 yards, four quick shots from prone. I put the sights more or less in the middle of the target. I got 3 hits, one high left (-3), one low left (-3), one mid height and also left (-1).

[Double]

The last few trips to the Sig Sauer Academy had us shooting steel at distances over 100 yards. With my Glock and Sig point of aim point of impact was the norm. Two of my staff that went with me had to aim 1/4 inch above the head, 9mm XD's for them.

It got to the point that I was holding the Sig upside down in my non-dominant hand and pressing the trigger with my little pinkie finger and still ringing steel, YES at a 100 yards. (could not do it with the DAK trigger however, that sucker is hard to pull with your pinky)

Bottom line is take your target put it up at 3 yards and shoot one hole groups. If you get a two or three inch group/string at 3 yards ...... well...... it highlights what needs to be done if you want good groups at any distance.

Chad

[Duane Thomas]

I think the problem is that most people never shoot at any real distance. Thus, when the time comes to do it, they freak. This is something "other" and therefore frightening. Every year at the Washington State IDPA Championships we have a "long range" (i.e. 30/35 yards) stage. Typically there's at least one guy - before we even fire the first shot - on the squad going, "I'm going to suck at this." Well, with that attitude, yeah. But if you practice this sort of shooting for just a bit, you realize it's simply not that hard.

[Blueridge]

I think that some stage designers think in terms of "personal defense" when they design stages. Shots at a range of 30-35yds puts them out of "common" self-defense ranges. This would be based off of the idea that if a threat is that far away, then how imminent is the threat and is egress possible instead of use a firearm. If IDPA stages are meant to resemble self-defense ranges, then it should be rare that participants face such stages.

That said, it would be wise to practice at ranges out to 30-35 yards. For if no other reason but to gain more confidence shooting longer distances under pressure.

[Boats]

You would be surprised how far a pistol can hit targets if held well. One of our club ranges has steel swingers out to 500 yards and for grins we will often shoot at them. Any Pistol can hit 50 yard steel with little off hold. .45 acp I use the top of the plate. 100 yards 9 MM's same thing use the top of the plate.

After our Rifle Silhouette matches we often knock down the remaining critters with pistols muzzle loaders etc. 1911's will knock over 300 meter pigs very well if you pick the right hold over. This particular range you can hold on a spot on the back berm 600 meters down range and have somebody spot your 300 meter misses or strikes on pigs. It only takes a few shots well spotted with two guys that know how to work together to walk the strikes right in and knock them over. We shoot long range sitting elbows on knees. Shooter looks at the target for windage only then comes up to the berm for elevation.

35 is not very far hold tight with the 9mm just a bit high with .45 ACP remember the 0 ring is not in the center of the target.

Boats

[sigfla]

That reminds me of a few range sessions with my favorite old gun (which I stupidly sold years ago to buy an AR). I had just taken up USPSA while in college and I was using my only gun a silver chrome model BHP shooting limited minor. I was at the range shooting rifles with my buddy and I decided to play with the 9mm. At 100 yards I hit a perfect dead center shot on a very small rock that exploded perfectly from the dead center hit. That shot taught me a valuable lesson.

"Never try to follow up perfection when showing off."

Seriously though, we regularly practice out to 100 yards hitting steel at the end of our practice sessions these days. We will compete to see who has the most hits out of 10 shots or so in the shortest time. The ony way to get comfortable at distance is to shoot it in practice.

[Duane Thomas]

"Never try to follow up perfection when showing off."

So true.

Years ago I'm out at the house of a friend of a friend, all three of us shooting. This guy has a lot of property, and a tree line to his back yard that's about 50 yards away. We set up three bowling pins right at the tree line and then troop back up to the house. My friend has brought a Colt .357 Magnum, one of the pre-Pythons with the skinny barrel. So my friend and the other guy bang away for quite awhile, and they NEVER hit a bowling pin. The pins just sit there, unmoving, totally unimpressed. I am by far the most experienced shooter there, I just kind of stand back with my hands in my jacket pockets. (It's a cold winter day.)

Finally I say to them, "You know, I'd like to try that. How many rounds do you have left?"

My friend looks down into the box of .38 Special ammo laying on the ground. "Three."

And at that point I know. I feel the hand of God on my shoulder, waiting to shoot through me. I say, "Well, that works out well. Three rounds, three bowling pins."

I load 'er up, remembering the cylinder rotates clockwise on a Colt, not counter-clockwise like on a Smith & Wesson. I thumb cock the gun, focus on those wonderful old Accro sights, put the top center of the front sight right in the center of the fat part of the leftmost bowling pin, accept the wobble zone, begin slowly applying pressure to the trigger. (Bear in mind I have never fired this gun before, I haven't sighted it in, I have no idea where it hits, I just know.)

Boom!

Fifty yards away, the first bowling pin falls over.

Do it again.

Boom!

Fifty yards away, the center bowling pin falls over.

Do it a third time. Just as the hammer falls, I see the front sight move, ever so minutely, to the left in the rear notch. But I know I've still hit.

Boom!

Fifty yards away....the third bowling pin....slowly tips to the right and falls over.

I casually knock the empties out of the gun, hand it back to my friend action open and say, "I do that sort of thing all the time."

Yep, I'm done shooting for the day. I mean, there's no more ammo, right?

[DogmaDog]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this possibility:

Maybe you're just holding in the center of the target, and hitting the center of the target. On a far away target, you're going to (hopefully) be focusing harder on the front sight, and have a blurrier target...you're either holding low in order to see a bit more target above the front sight, just to know it's there, or you're centering on the target...

Deliberately aim where the -0 zone is. You can hold at the shoulder level on purpose, or just figure out how much target you need to see above the front sight--less than you're seeing now.

DD