ErikW Posted November 17, 2003 Share Posted November 17, 2003 I've been wanting to do an all-steel, Fixed Time course for a long time. The time has come. But I read in Front Sight about some problems with similar courses. Is it legitimate to issue Extra Shot penalties per US 9.4.4.1? Should I manipulate the number of steel targets and par time such that extra shots are unlikely? If I put down a box, requiring all shots fired from it, and I have 9 or more steel, am I violating US 1.2.1? Would it be a better idea to make it a US 1.2.2.1 Standard Exercise, with two 12-round strings requiring a reload in each? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 All steel - No Paper = illegal??? EDIT - My bad.. All "IPSC Plates" in a course of fire = illegal. Better leave the rule comments to others... I'll shut up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Benzick Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 If I recall correctly, fix time courses are a subset of Virginia count, therefore no steel allowed. I don't have my rule book with me at work though. If you set it up, I'd shoot it without complaint. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Erik, At our club here in FL we usually have an all steel stage at least once a year. Everyone loves it. Setup 30-40 pieces and set a fixed time where it would be just about impossible for your best shooter to clean it. Fun stuff. The only downfall is if 1 guy/girl gets really hot and mows down a bunch more than anyone else. Lots of points gained or lost, depending if your the shooter or not. But still we do it so we can rearrange our steel shed, plus it's a blast!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted November 18, 2003 Author Share Posted November 18, 2003 If I recall correctly You don't. But when the CRO reads "Fixed Time scoring" in the course-description walk-through, somebody inevitably says, "Virginia Count?" FT, like VC, has a fixed number of rounds with penalties for extra shots and extra hits, but it is neither VC nor a subset. It is "Fixed Time" scoring. If I seem anal-retentive about it, that's because I am. The standards course is looking like a good option. Twenty-four steel targets at 10-20 yards, one box, two strings of 7 seconds each. (One second for the draw, one second for the reload, and generous half-second splits.) I'll give 'em an extra second if I make one or both strings include strong or weak hand only. Hmmm, two plate racks, a TX star, and seven poppers, yeah, that's the ticket... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted November 18, 2003 Author Share Posted November 18, 2003 Paul, that's exactly what I want to do. However, I want to do it legally according to the USPSA rulebook, which requires a different approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Is it legitimate to issue Extra Shot penalties per US 9.4.4.1? Yes. Should I manipulate the number of steel targets and par time such that extra shots are unlikely? That is what I would do. And, I have shot stages like that at a Major. As long as we are being anal about the rules...I don't see where the "fixed number of rounds" has to be equal to the number of targets? You could always make the shot limit something crazy, like 200 rounds??? If I put down a box, requiring all shots fired from it, and I have 9 or more steel, am I violating US 1.2.1? Yep. But, here is a fix. Instead of just a box, make it a shooting area. Make the box 8 or 12 feet wide. Then, throw in some kind of vision barrier to hide at least one target...no matter where in the box (area) the shooter starts, they have to move to be able to see everything. (might have to tweak that idea a bit) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted November 18, 2003 Author Share Posted November 18, 2003 Since my previous post, I created a course description for "Gardens of Steel Standards." It might be an OK stage but it's just not what I wanted to do. So I ditched the boxes and made one long shooting area to be shot in a single string and named it "Steel Garden Gnome*." Stand back at the rear fault line or run up to the front or shoot them on the move. Do I really need a vision barrier? I don't think you could consider a 10+ yard long area a single position. "Fixed number of rounds." Incomplete sentence. Well, I have a fixed number of rounds scored, is that good enough? Still, I need to avoid the extra shot penalties. 3.2.2 [...] Written stage briefings shall provide the following minimum information tocompetitors: [...] Minimum number of rounds [...] How about "Fixed number of rounds is 999. Minimum number of rounds is 24." ? * A certain SoCal shooter, who shall remain nameless, hates stand-and-deliver courses and calls them "garden gnome" stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schoonie Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Eric, Not to worry about the 'fixed number of rounds', that's for the EZWin scoring program. All rounds have to be accounted for, either scoring hits or misses, or as in your case, non penalty mikes. EZWin will not allow the statistician to complete the scoring until all the designated rounds have been accounted for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Hi All For the record, while the IPSC handgun rules state that paper targets must be used exclusively in FT or VC stages, it is permitted to use solely metal targets in FT and VC shotgun and rifle stages (IPSC). There is no requirement to have even a single paper target. However, please note that if paper targets are included it is recommended that they be disappearing targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Olhasso Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 A Fixed time all steel stage is legal as long as it is not all plates. The defination of fixed time also requires a fixed number of scoring hits. If you want to have a fixed time stage with 20 pieces of steel, then by defination, the stage will be limited to 20 shots with a 5 point penalty being assessed for any extra or overtime shots. A fixed time stage without a shot limit or with a shot limit that is greater than the scoring hits is not a legal USPSA stage. Even though such a stage is alot of fun to shoot, it is not legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 A fixed time stage without a shot limit or with a shot limit that is greater than the scoring hits is not a legal USPSA stage. Even though such a stage is alot of fun to shoot, it is not legal. David, if you can quote a rule number for that? I'd be interested in reading it. All I could find was a "fixed number of rounds". I didn't read where the "fixed number of rounds" had to match the number of targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Olhasso Posted November 26, 2003 Share Posted November 26, 2003 Flex: Interesting point. 9.2.2.1 states that in a Virginia Count stage the number of rounds is fixed and time stops on the last shot. US 9.2.2.4 states that in a fixed time stage the number of rounds is fixed. Your logic implies that there is a difference between the number of rounds and the number of scoring hits in a VC or Fixed Time stage. I feel that the rule book implies that in stages where the number of rounds is fixed, the number of scoring hits matches the number of rounds. If the scoring hits and number of rounds can be different, then a VC stage with 10 required shots, but only 5 scoring hits would be legal. The rule book is vague, but if a fixed time stage with 20 scoring hits and 300 rounds is legal, then so is my crazy VC stage described above with 10 required shots but only 5 scoring hits. now what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 26, 2003 Share Posted November 26, 2003 Good question. Leave it up to the stage designer??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul B Posted November 27, 2003 Share Posted November 27, 2003 All or mostly steel stages are a lot of fun. I specially remember a great one called "Tail Gunner" at a Pennsylvania match last year. All the problems go away though if you just make it comstock. No arguments over extra shots - no calibration checks - no painting the steel between shooters (extra hits) etc. There is a philosophical difference between stages where the person with the fewest misses wins and stages where the person with the best hits in the fastest time wins. I like the latter, but others like the former. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Erik, what did you finally end up with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted December 5, 2003 Author Share Posted December 5, 2003 I'm going to wing it. That is, if I have the strength to build it Saturday. I've been sick for a week; thought it was the flu, now I'm pretty sure it's pneumonia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 I am supprised that no one else has mention it yet, but there was a all steel, fixed time stage at Area 3 this last summer. One problem they had was that some shooters said they couldn't hear the 2nd beep of the timmer to stop. They answer to this, was that the shooter had the option of having the RO tap him (or Her) on the shoulder when the 2nd beep occured. Problem there is that now you have 2 people's reaction times coming into play. It is an interesting idea, and some people REALLY liked the stage. Just felt bad for some of the guys with bad hearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted December 5, 2003 Author Share Posted December 5, 2003 The second buzzer isn't for the shooter. Fixed Time doesn't have to give any signal (audio, visual, or otherwise) to indicate the end of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 Fixed time always has an end of time signal. It can be when the targets turn away. US 9.4.4.3 Overtime shots shall be defined as shots fired after the signal to cease fire. If the time... If there is no cease fire signal, you can't recognize overtime shots. You can still do fixed time only if the targets disappear, or you somehow prevent the competitor from continuing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted December 6, 2003 Author Share Posted December 6, 2003 <Removing foot from mouth> OK, the shooter doesn't have to hear an audible signal. He can't say, "I didn't hear it," and demand a reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 A signal that half the competitors won't get? Bogus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted December 6, 2003 Author Share Posted December 6, 2003 Tough S. Part of the skill test is pacing yourself for the allotted time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 I'll borrow a line. "You are a Better Man than That!" Given that it's all steel, and an overtime shot is only penalized the value of an A. If you aren't missing, you aren't hurting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 They have the timed fire stuff worked out for Bianchi Cup. I figure that if a shooter can hear the start signal, then they can hear the stop signal. Of course, I'd use the loudest timer..and an experienced RO to man that stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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