Chris Christian Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Duane If it's a Vickers COF and one fires three shots at a "tight" target instead of the COF minimum of two, I would not consider that cheating and take offense at your implication of it as such. I also understand your sub-conscious concept and agree with it to an extent... as I have stated previously. However, I don't know how well that's working for you because I have not seen any of your scores posted from National level matches... just a few small state-level matches. That doesn't indicate how well your theories work when playing with the Big Boys. Mine are posted from the last three national Championships and are public knowledge. I'll let the readers determine their validity in this discussion. And, I don't consider that statement to be any more disrespectful or antagonistic than your publically calling me a cheater. Chris Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I didn't say that firing three shots at a "tight" target in an attempt to ensure good hits is cheating, I said it's indicative of someone who's not reading his sights. I didn't call you a cheater, I said that round dumping is cheating. And it is. It's specifically illegal per the Rule Book. I stated that I would never do that myself. I never have, and I never will. I'm not motivated to go out on the 'net and track down your match results, but I'm certainly willing to take your word that you do really well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Christian Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I didn't say I did really well. I just said my match scores from National Championship matches are posted in a public domain and readers can draw their own conclusion as to whether my thoughts have any validity in this discussion. I do note that early in the discussion on this thread Rob Moore SSP MA noted ( and I am paraphrasing here... not quoting directly) that accurate hits are nice and if it takes no more time to make them than the down point penalty for missing them (speaking of 3s and 5s I assume... not 1s) they are worth making. His scores are also posted... and they're better than mine. Chris Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Well, in any event I certainly didn't mean to insult you, and apologize if I did. I'm looking at this as a discussion of different ideas, not a contest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Christian Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Duane As a discussion of shooting philosophys to allow the shooter to achieve superior results, this has been a very good thread! I'm glad for the opportunity to participate and share thoughts. It may have gotten a touch (a very small touch) heated at times... but Gentlemen can always agree to politely disagree... and I think that has happened here. I think that in the end we probably agree more than we disagree .... just a few subtle points where our thoughts (based upon our personal experiences) are not in synch. But, if the readers walked away with anything positive that will help their shooting, then the thread did a fine job, and was worth the time spent. Chris Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMoore Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 (edited) I've had the chance to scan back through a bit, but nowhere near enough to read some of the short essays. For my first two years shooting competitively, my total focus at matches was to go as fast as I could go. I accepted whatever sight picture was there when I brought the gun to bear on a target. It got me a few trophies as an expert and even MA at smaller venues because even though I had 30-40 more points down than second place, my raw times were that much quicker. Sometimes I'd crash and burn and get nothing. A few weeks before the USPSA Nationals, I focused myself on "shooting alphas". I made an "Alpha Bet" at the IL Sectional with my friends, and although I didn't know anyone at Nationals, I still kept that attitude that I was competing for alphas. The result was that I shot slower than I am accustomed to. Not a lot slower, but I was seeing differences of 3-4 seconds per stage between me and people I should have been as fast as. At a local match this weekend, my behavior was the same. I had no more than 1 point down on my first 3-4 stages, but I started to see people I KNEW I was much faster than turning in times within tenths of mine. I woke up and said to myself "Why the heck are you shooting so slow?" So, I went out and "turned on the afterburners", and wound up with no more points down, but I was about 3 seconds quicker. I haven't yet learned this voodoo trick of "shooting subconsciously", but I have done it on occasion. I know the two MA level USPSA classifiers I have on record weren't my conscious mind steering the gun. It just happened, and I thought "coooool" when it was over and I was standing there with my gun staring at the targets before I realized it was time to ULSC. I knew I was only able to do it because I'd practiced trying to do it. I just haven't been there often enough to know how to get there on-demand. Its not an easy thing to convey to someone else either, that is why I think sometimes the best thing to tell a MM/SS is to shoot accurately in matches, and in practice try to maintain that 70-80% accuracy while going as fast as that will allow, and on occasion go "balls to the wall" and see where the limit is. Edited September 28, 2009 by RobMoore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pittbug Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I've been following this thread quite closely thanks to all the contributions, they got me thinking. I have a few observations I'd like to throw out there: Accuracy is pretty self explanatory I think, but speed is much more complicated. Are we just talking about splits? In which case grip, trigger control, recoil management and vision play a huge part. Or are we talking about the non-bang parts of shooting such as speed of movement, efficiency of movement, reloading etc? The OP wasn't specific enough, but for me, when I think about speed, I think of everything needed to complete the cof in as short an amount of time as possible. The concepts of speed and accuracy are not in opposition. Some of us may be inherently more accurate than fast, or the other way round. But that's not to say that one is more important than the other, or should be emphasized more. If you limit yourself to thinking that those are the only two options available then there's still not one simple answer, it just depends what you emphasize at your current state of skill development. As we progress, we're naturally going to be better at some things than others. Inevitably at some point, we will determine that one of them needs work because it doesn't meet our expectation. As soon as we've turned that weakness into a strength we self analyze and find something else we need to work on. Those of us who offer tips to novices tend to stress the accuracy part of the game, mostly for safety reasons I think. Last thing we want to do is chase a jittery novice through a cof running and gunning as fast as they can... muzzle, finger, AD... aarrgghh, it would be a nightmare. But at some point, the novice is going to get more experience and their match jitters will be gone. At that point they're going to want to work on speed as their competitive drive starts kicking in. This is a natural progression (as with many other sports) and I don't think it should be discouraged by telling someone to continue working on accuracy and the speed will come. It's a given that in order to be accurate you have to practice accuracy. So surely it stands to reason that in order to be fast, you also have to practice being fast. I'm also encompassing movement and transitions, not just splits. If someone wants to work on speed, then they need to be given drills and advice to help them with that part of their game, such as the bill drill into the berm. That's not about accuracy, that's about seeing what happens when you shoot really fast, most likely much faster than you've ever shot before. The goal is to feel what it's like, learning what changes you need to make in your muscles, vision, etc. When I first started I too was focused on accuracy, but then at some point after watching MA shooters and comparing their performance, I found that sometimes they dropped more points than me, but their raw time was so much quicker that they still beat me. At that point I was past the pre match jitters and was confident enough to be able to start working on the speed part of my game. I think at that point I transitioned to a type B shooter, per Duane's definition. I posted a video a while back of me going through an el prez in dry fire. Someone commented that there's no way I'd shoot it that fast during live fire, so perhaps it's useless. Of course I completely agree and disagree. Of course I can't shoot it that fast, but that was not really the point. If I never practice moving that fast without the bang part, how am I ever supposed to do it with the bang part? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 It may have gotten a touch (a very small touch) heated at times... but Gentlemen can always agree to politely disagree... and I think that has happened here. I very much agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I've had the chance to scan back through a bit, but nowhere near enough to read some of the short essays. Hey, I resemble that remark! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMoore Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 You live up to your current nickname/title I really like the way you put it, going too fast for the conscious mind to keep up. The "trick" may be in how to get the subconscious to engage, so that you don't fall flat on your face. I'm reminded of that stupid Geico commercial with the CEO asking the Gecko to catch him as he falls backwards, trusting that his fall will be broken. Some people have a sturdy brute of a subconscious waiting there, and some of us have a Gecko. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 You live up to your current nickname/title Actually, Brian didn't give me that name - in the very early days of the forums board - for skill at story telling, though it's funny you should say that. Just a few days ago I had a woman tell me, "Wow....you're really great at telling stories." Some people have a sturdy brute of a subconscious waiting there, and some of us have a Gecko. I love it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor_R Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Wow. Some great info. I have nothing to add but Duane had a good point and I'm going to take his approach. There was a thread on the same subject on a different forum and this is what I posted. I'm new to IDPA as I've only been shooting IDPA for 7 months now and I'm the kind of person that likes to do things fast no matter what it is. I cant seem to slow myself down when I shoot either. This has become a problem. I went to my first State match (WA) in Aug of this year and by the 3rd stage I felt that I was shooting really bad and decided to go for broke on the rest of the match. I won my class ESP MM but to me was pure luck. I figured everyone in my class just shot worse then I did. I then went to my 2nd State match (ID). This was a big eye opener as I was running around with my head cut off. My time was great but my points down were horrible. My raw time was 196.68 but my points down were 185 which put my total score at 350. A guy on my squad said that I looked good and I told him that's all it was, was looks and I knew my points were really bad. Looks wont do nothing for a win LOL. I have alot to learn. I placed 6 out of 7 and I was really disappointed in myself on how I did. I cant seem to slow down so I'm trying to be more accurate with how fast I'm shooting. May not be a great plan but I cant slow myself down. This also happens at my local match's. I will be 1st, 2nd, 3rd but I'm 7th or 8th on accuracy. I kinda wish I was more accuarte then I was fast. So with some more practice I maybe abled to work this out and keep my speed where it is. I hope anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Fast or Accurate? No. Ying/Yang...balance... duality? No. There never an answer to a question like that. The premise is flawed by the faulty question. Instead, ask...what is most fundamental ? Then, ask...how do you execute that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Victor, In your situation, you do need to focus on the fundamentals of accurate shooting. Just don't let that make you scared to keep your speed. I'm saying here, "Speed WHILE working on accuracy," not "Speed INSTEAD of working on accuracy." If you need to slow down to a snail's pace, isolate every fact of your technique to polish it, fine, wonderful. But then go back to shooting at max speed. If your points down suck that much, the areas most likely in need of work are failures of trigger control, and lack of a solid index. There is much info on this site about how to improve both those areas. While what I've just said may sound contradictory to everything else I've said in this thread about the subconscious mind being able to figure things out for itself and adjust your technique accordingly while firing at speed, the fact is the subconscious mind needs to have enough experience on which to base its decisions. You need to sort out your stance, grip, sight alignment, trigger control and follow-through. When I say "speed first, accuracy second" the term "first" does not refer to those with, no offense, a beginner level of skill as competitors - which (probably) also translates into being not that solid on the basics of shooting. Though I have talked in this thread about "speed first, accuracy second" as a superior approach, please don't think I'm downplaying the importance of having solid accuracy skills. One of the great myths about our sort of shooting is that it's all about speed, you can blaze away at max speed and that will make up for a fundamental lack of shooting skill. This is simply not true. The best shooters, while they have the ability to operate at Warp Zillion, also have excellent accuracy skills. AAMOF I would say that what separates the best shooters from the rest is the ability to put the bullet exactly where they want it, at whatever speed they're shooting. It's just that at Warp Zillion on a close range target with an 8" highest scoring area, our need for accurate shot placement isn't, in the overall scheme of things, that great. As Angus Hobdell says on 3GM, the sort of shooting we do is, many times, a process of trading away refinement in trigger control and sight alignment for speed. The more solid is our basic technique, the more refinement we can trade away and still be acceptably accurate. For instance, just for the purposes of discusion, let's say that on an IDPA target at a particular distance, let us say five yards, we can, if we take our time, literally put our bullets through the same hole. Now, with one caliber-size hole in the center of the 8" circle, how far away from our our POI can we be, with that group size, and still land our bullets inside the 8" circle? Four inches, right? That means we can trade away a LOT of refinement of sight picture and trigger control on that target, at that distance, without dropping any points. What if we start out with accuracy skills such that the very best group we can possibly fire at five yards when we take all the time we want to shoot is FOUR inches? How far away can we be from our maximum, predictable, slow fire group size, in any direction, and still keep our shots inside the 8" circle? Two inches, right? IOW we cannot shoot nearly as fast on that target, at that distance, without dropping points. What if our maximum potential slow fire accuracy at that distance is EIGHT inches? Even when we take all the time in the world, it's all we can do to keep all our shots inside the 8" circle. Now we have no refinement of sight picture and trigger control we can trade away. We cannot shoot that target any faster than that without beginning to drop serious points. I still believe that "speed first, accuracy later" is a superior approach. But there's no doubt in the world that to get where we want to go, eventually we're going to need both. Which is why I have such a problem with the either/or attitude toward speed and accuracy. We CAN have both. Actually we direly NEED both. I just do think you're going to wind up with more of both, eventually, if you go "max speed while working to improve your accuracy" than the other way around. And we're always learning new things, new approaches, new techniques. The Path never ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 There never an answer to a question like that. The premise is flawed by the faulty question. Very good! Many of the questions that we ask ourselves our faulty, and thus the answers we arrive at don't really solve the problem we think we are having. Sometimes it is good to find a new question to answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Sometimes (since we can't always practice/shoot as much as we want) we tend to over complicate things on these threads. It simply comes down to the best time (in IDPA) or HF (USPSA) for the stage- and to do that you need to execute everything well. Since every stage is different it requires different skills and speeds. Ironically I think we can ALL pick up speed or accuracy... but it's the ellusive perfect balance that makes this sport so damn fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor_R Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Victor,In your situation, you do need to focus on the fundamentals of accurate shooting. Very true. I'll be shooting steel matchs to help with this along with regular practice and I hope it helps me with my accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Steel matches are very unforgiving of sloppy accuracy. This is a GOOD thing. They also demand a lot of speed to excel. This is likewise a GOOD thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1973 Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 Is it better to be fast or accurate? Wow, 93 replies so far! What a thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 From a quick run through from the Nat’s results only 5 out of 18 (that had any one to shoot against) won and also had low points down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeidaho Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Anyone else notice the pattern in the anecdotes told here. It seems when a shooter alternates between focusing on speed, and then accuracy, that both increase. Maybe it is an iterative approach that is needed to gain both. Then on game day, let the subconscious drive. kr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckie Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 I shoot one handed and sideways-gangsta style-and I'm snake fast but can't hit a barn door to save my life; my gun jams alot, too. So I say accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTBfarms Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 IMO accuracy is always better. If you are expert and above going faster will mean more because in most cases you will already be an accurate shooter. Sharp Shooter and below (like me) slowing down and getting zeros will greatly improve your overall score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prreed10 Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 I shot a local IDPA match yesterday. For the first time for me, I had the fastest time and the lowest number of points down. My score is usually low, but I put some points on paper. It will probably be the best match I shoot all year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 It will probably be the best match I shoot all year. Don't say that even as a joke. The subconscious mind is listening. Instead say to yourself, "This is a harbinger of things to come." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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