2009 Open/Production Nationals Popper Issues

[zhunter]

Nik

So you are wiling to sacrifice the first shooter or two?

In a major match, not one shooter should shoot a stage under poorer conditions than another. Currently, this is the case with poppers, and poppers hiding another target just accentuate the problem exponentially.

I applaud your wanting to have creative stage designs, and to answer your earlier question, no, I have not designed any stages, but I don't see the point in this exchange.

The point is fairness and the ability of the stage equipment to react the same throughout the entire match. Falling Steel (poppers) have historically proven to be a weak point.

[BayouSlide]

Sure, steel poses the occasional problem. But the vast majority of the time it works as intended, as Nik notes, if the stage crew does it's job properly. When it doesn't, the rules already in place provide a manner of dealing with it without adding an unreasonable amount of time or complicating issues of match management. If it presents continual problems, the stage can and should be pulled.

But the final recourse is always in the hands of the competitor. To me, the competitor has to make a judgement...and should be prepared to do so in a split second during a run. Personally, if a popper didn't fall for me after two solid hits, I'd move on and call for calibration, because at that point I'd be reasonably confident that the rules in place would set things straight.

This particular issue has resulted in a thought-provoking discussion, and a raised awareness of the potential issues with steel that I haven't personally experienced. But all the proposed solutions have potential downsides as well, it seems to me. I guess I would fall into the camp of preferring the status quo. Personally, this particular incident would make me prefer to have critical pieces of steel reset and checked by an RO rather than by competitors, to make sure it was staying free and consistent in operation for everyone over the course of the match.

People with more major match experience than me may feel differently and I'm interested in their viewpoints.

Edited to add: FWIW, our local club set up and shot this exact stage from the Nationals at our last monthly match without any issues.

Edited September 15, 2009 by BayouSlide

[slip knot]

Always, Always, move on to the rest of the targets, if the

steel does not fall on the first or second shot.

When they come to check it with their loads, and it

does fall, it is a miss on all other targets and a FTE...

Not good............

[SA Friday]

Something that I haven't read mentioned so far is where was the scorekeeper during all of this? The RO watches the gun, the scorekeeper watches the shots fired. If I remember correctly from my RO class the scorekeeper is also an RO for the stage and CAN stop the shooter based on the popper not falling; range failure and reshoot. Declared pf is considered valid until proven incorrect at the chrono. Props are not supposed to be there to possibly screw someone over randomly. Stopping the shooter after multiple valid hits on a pepper popper, adjusting the prop, and giving the reshoot is the right way.

IMO, there is nothing wrong with steel or pepper poppers, but here is an inherent lack of scorekeepers watching the hits during the COF and remedying issues like this.

[BayouSlide]

If I remember correctly from my RO class the scorekeeper is also an RO for the stage and CAN stop the shooter based on the popper not falling; range failure and reshoot. Declared pf is considered valid until proven incorrect at the chrono.

Under 4.6, REF would only apply to a popper that wasn't reset (or one that fell due to wind or other outside influence, i.e. premature activation), not one that didn't fall after being hit. Calibration challenge is the only recourse for one that doesn't fall when hit.

Curtis

[Jake Di Vita]

Does that include an edge hit? A hit just above the base? A hit that's solidly anywhere on the front surface? Only hits that land in or touch the circle? Are we ready to eliminate activating poppers from stage design? Are we willing to eliminate poppers/US poppers/Plates in a line, with each concealing the next?

An edge hit in the circle qualifies....just like it does for a plate. A hit low on the popper is no good and counts as a miss - only hits that land in or touch the circle count. This has absolutely nothing to do with eliminating activating poppers - I just said if the popper is hit and doesn't fall it is an automatic reshoot for REF. Same thing for poppers in line. If 1 doesn't fall after a qualifying hit - reshoot.

The example of an edge hit on a paper target not scoring because it doesn't break the perf is erroneous. The edge of the steel IS the perf. If it hits, it should score.

There is no need to have different rules for what is essentially the same target.

So, everyone will be shooting minor --- since we can eliminate the chrono.....

All I'm saying is there is no need to have 2 things to measure power. We have an accurate scientific measurement with the chronograph - what good does the popper do to measure power - especially when there are sometimes dozens of different ones at matches. At least with the chronograph everyone is measured by the same piece of equipment. You could make the same argument about poppers of course - IF they were infallible. Which they obviously aren't.

I don't agree. I see a lot of poppers shot on a lot of stages every year without issue. At many of those matches, no one gets hosed by the steel. (2006 in Tulsa --- virtually every competitor had popper issues; but that was a forward falling design flaw --- and based on my experience at the 2003-6 Production Nationals an aberration....)

Real simple answer to figure it out.

Lets run a poll for each major match and see how many people had or witnessed a popper issue. I'd be willing to bet we'd hear of more than 1 at every major. That just isn't acceptable when a simple change of "steel must fall when hit within the circle or reshoot" is all that's needed.

[Nik Habicht]

Nik

So you are wiling to sacrifice the first shooter or two?

Nope --- although I can see why you might think so. At a local match -- with same day set-up -- we're pretty experienced at setting the poppers and movers so there are rarely issues. There is however no time (during set-up) to actually test with bullets. Hence, we take a look and make sure that things are running the way we planned and built them to.....

In a major match, not one shooter should shoot a stage under poorer conditions than another. Currently, this is the case with poppers, and poppers hiding another target just accentuate the problem exponentially.

Ideally that's certainly true --- but in reality it doesn't work that way. There are always going to be atmospheric conditions that will affect stage presentation. We have rules in place to deal with popper malfunctions -- in my not insignificant match shooting experience those rules work pretty well.....

I applaud your wanting to have creative stage designs, and to answer your earlier question, no, I have not designed any stages, but I don't see the point in this exchange.

Experience level informs opinion, no? If I had an issue with Golf, I'd be pretty willing to listen to your experience.....

The point is fairness and the ability of the stage equipment to react the same throughout the entire match. Falling Steel (poppers) have historically proven to be a weak point.

We'll have to disagree on poppers having been historically proven to be the weak point....

[moverfive]

This is a simple "use your commone sense" situation for a RO. In cases where one of the RO's see where a shooter has hit a popper in the circle multiple times, they should immediately stop the shooter.....especially on an activating piece of steel. There is obviously range equipment failure or something seriously wrong with the stage/equipment.

That is the FAIR thing to do for the shooter. I know when I see three hits inside the circle, it is range equipment failure immediately.

Now the return argument would be - maybe the shooter's ammo wasn't meeting minimum power factor. Well, that will be determined at the chrono. If they are shooting sub-minor, they will not be scored within the match and thus the re-shoot would not have been 'unfair' for the remainder of the shooters.

This situation and SO many of the rules in the rulebook should be looked at with - WHAT is the rule trying to say. The reason that level of knowledge is needed is so that when that one weird situation erupts, the RO can make a FAIR ruling. The rules concerning popper and their calibration is really geared around ONE hit on the popper.....if it takes more than one acceptable hit, it is range equipment failure by definition.

In this particular case, when a popper had to be hit so many times within the circle, the RO should have stopped the shooter.....it would been the FAIR thing to do for all.

[BayouSlide]

This is a simple "use your commone sense" situation for a RO. In cases where one of the RO's see where a shooter has hit a popper in the circle multiple times, they should immediately stop the shooter.....especially on an activating piece of steel. There is obviously range equipment failure or something seriously wrong with the stage/equipment.

That is the FAIR thing to do for the shooter. I know when I see three hits inside the circle, it is range equipment failure immediately.

Now the return argument would be - maybe the shooter's ammo wasn't meeting minimum power factor. Well, that will be determined at the chrono. If they are shooting sub-minor, they will not be scored within the match and thus the re-shoot would not have been 'unfair' for the remainder of the shooters.

This situation and SO many of the rules in the rulebook should be looked at with - WHAT is the rule trying to say. The reason that level of knowledge is needed is so that when that one weird situation erupts, the RO can make a FAIR ruling. The rules concerning popper and their calibration is really geared around ONE hit on the popper.....if it takes more than one acceptable hit, it is range equipment failure by definition.

In this particular case, when a popper had to be hit so many times within the circle, the RO should have stopped the shooter.....it would been the FAIR thing to do for all.

I can understand the frustration. Unfortunately, "common sense" is a slippery slope. The present rules are actually very clear on this issue. Reading between the lines opens up the issue of fairness regarding varying interpretations from match to match and RO to RO.

Someone much wiser than me said "That's why they are rules, not suggestions." Rules are like glass in that respect: they can't be bent, only broken.

It's in the rule book and it's clearly stated. Until the rules are changed, this is what we have to work with.

Curtis

Edited: to add a point and 'cause I hate typos!

Edited September 15, 2009 by BayouSlide

[zhunter]

Nik

You gave me a chuckle

[moverfive]

The rules are clear....they are designed for how to handle when the popper is hit ONCE. The rule book does not cover 100% of the situations.....that is why RO's must sometimes use common sense in order to make everything as fair for everyone as possible.

Edited September 15, 2009 by moverfive

[larry cazes]

I can understand the frustration. Unfortunately, "common sense" is a slippery slope. The present rules are actually very clear on this issue. Reading between the lines opens up the issue of fairness regarding varying interpretations from match to match and RO to RO.

Someone much wiser than me said "That's why they are rules, not suggestions." Rules are like glass in that respect: they can't be bent, only broken.

It's in the rule book and it's clearly stated. Until the rules are changed, this is what we have to work with.

Curtis

Well said, Curtis. Definitely overblown.

[SA Friday]

If I remember correctly from my RO class the scorekeeper is also an RO for the stage and CAN stop the shooter based on the popper not falling; range failure and reshoot. Declared pf is considered valid until proven incorrect at the chrono.

Under 4.6, REF would only apply to a popper that wasn't reset (or one that fell due to wind or other outside influence, i.e. premature activation), not one that didn't fall after being hit. Calibration challenge is the only recourse for one that doesn't fall when hit.

Curtis

Sadly, after thinking over your post, you are right. Rules get re-written. This is one I will file away for the next revision if it doesn't come up sooner. An RO should be able to make this call, especially when there are secondary targets associated with the popper not working fairly.

[BayouSlide]

The rules are clear....they are designed for how to handle when the popper is hit ONCE. The rule book does not cover 100% of the situations.....that is why RO's must sometimes use common sense in order to make everything as fair for everyone as possible.

Actually, the rules cover it quite clearly if it's hit once...or more than once. If the rules intended otherwise, we would have no procedure for shooter choice or calibration.

4.3.1.5 Scoring metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score.

Scoring Poppers which fail to fall when hit, are subject to the

provisions of Appendix C1, 6 & 7.

From C. 6

6. If, during a course of fire, a popper does not fall when hit, a competitor has

three alternatives:

a. The popper is shot again until it falls. In this case, no further action is

required and the course of fire is scored “as shot”.

b. The popper is left standing but the competitor does not challenge the

calibration. In this case, no further action is required and the course of

fire is scored “as shot”, with the subject popper scored as a miss.

c. The popper is left standing and the competitor challenges the calibration.

Not trying to beat this to death but, to me, the greatest unfairness occurs when we don't understand the rules and apply them consistently.

Curtis

[slip knot]

Right on

[Jadeslade]

Power to the People.

[Jake Di Vita]

Not trying to beat this to death but, to me, the greatest unfairness occurs when we don't understand the rules and apply them consistently.

I'd have to say getting a solid hit on a popper and having it not fall only to watch it topple right over when calibrated is pretty unfair.

[MarkCO]

Actually, the rules cover it quite clearly if it's hit once...or more than once. If the rules intended otherwise, we would have no procedure for shooter choice or calibration ... Not trying to beat this to death but, to me, the greatest unfairness occurs when we don't understand the rules and apply them consistently.

Curtis

Well Said Curtis. The rulebook IS consistent, but few competitors have read the entire rulebook. The Rulebook in USPSA should be viewed as prescriptive, not interpretive. She made her choice on the popper, granted in the heat of a stage, and either got bad advice to arbitrate, or just was unaware of the rules. Tough break, but the proper outcome, based on her choice, did occur.

[JThompson]

The proper outcome is to have a fair and equal COF for all competitors. The fact that they spent time after she shot it to fix the calibration of the popper tells me this did not occur. With and added target and FTE she had little choice, but to drive it. You don't know the state a popper after being hit once or 5 times. It might have been freed up and pass calibration after being hit. IMHO the only equatable thing to do, esp in light they went out to recalibrate the popper after her run, is to reset the popper and shoot it with calibration ammo. If it was within the rules for me to do so, I would stop the shooter and check calibration, but it's not within the rules to do so.

What might be worth some thought is allowing an RO to do just that. If I see a solid hit in the proper calibration area, I have the power to stop a shooter and check calibration. This would be the CRO/RO call and not the shooter, the call would be final and not open for arbitration. The more I think about that one the better I like it. This would take any gaming out of it and leave it in the hands of the RO. I have no doubt, if what I heard about this case is correct, that I would have made the call and checked calibration.

Downsides?

JT

Edited September 16, 2009 by JThompson

[Jake Di Vita]

That's how I've always RO'd.

[Jadeslade]

I think by this point it's clear that , yes, the rules were followed correctly, but the point is that steel (poppers) need some rule changes so this kind of obvious stuff is rectifiable in the future. Certainly to have match staff come in after the incident, before the next shooter, speaks louder than words. I will let more articulate people than me continue the argument. I really don't get why a few adamant souls are so resistant to modifying the rules, when so many have chimed in over the last couple of years about this very problem. It's a game, game rules get changed all the time, what is nailing you all to the ground?

[moverfive]

The proper outcome is to have a fair and equal COF for all competitors. The fact that they spent time after she shot it to fix the calibration of the popper tells me this did not occur. With and added target and FTE she had little choice, but to drive it. You don't know what state a popper after being hit once or 5 times. It might have been freed up and pass calibration after being hit. IMHO the only equatable thing to do, esp in light they went out to recalibrate the popper after her run, is to reset the popper and shoot it with calibration ammo. If it was within the rules for me to do so, I would stop the shooter and check calibration, but it's not within the rules to do so.

What might be worth some thought is allowing an RO to do just that. If I see a solid hit in the proper calibration area, I have the power to stop a shooter and check calibration. This would be the CRO/RO call and not the shooter, the call would be final and not open for arbitration. The more I think about that one the better I like it. This would take any gaming out of it and leave it in the hands of the RO. I have no doubt, if what I heard about this case is correct, that I would have made the call and checked calibration.

Downsides?

JT

This is where "clear" rules or not goes by the wayside. The ruling by the arbritration committee was spot on, no argument because the popper was down and the RO didn't stop the shooter. And again, the rules do not clearly address the situation where a popper is hit multiple times. The rules address what happens if a popper falls when hit and the if the popper doesn't fall when hit, what the options are to the shooter.....not specifically options for the RO.

All I have said here is - the RO needs to use some common sense. If a shooter has hit a popper multiple times within the circle, something is wrong with the popper. If something is wrong with the popper, the stage is not fair to the shooter. Any hit from a minimum 125pf bullet within the circle of a popper is supposed to knock down the popper.....if it doesn't, range failure. So how do we know if the shooter is using a minimum 125pf bullet.....chrono. And again, I am not talking about one, or maybe two hits......but how many folks have seen or experienced where it took at least three good hits to knock down a popper?

The ONLY argument that can be made in that particular case is that the shooter wasn't shooting at least minor with those particular rounds. And while I am sure there may have been cases of that, but in my many years shooting this sport......after a situation where it took four or five rounds to drive down a popper, the popper is subsequently adjusted and things work great afterwards, just like the case of this particular thread. How is that fair to the shooter that had to drive it down? It isn't.

All I am saying is when it becomes obvious to the RO that something is wrong with a part of a stage (a popper in this example) and that 'wrong' has negative effects on the shooter, the shooter should be stopped and given a reshoot. In my opinion to sit there and watch a shooter play steel challenge on a popper and not do anything......is inexcusable.

[JThompson]

JT

All I am saying is when it becomes obvious to the RO that something is wrong with a part of a stage (a popper in this example) and that 'wrong' has negative effects on the shooter, the shooter should be stopped and given a reshoot. In my opinion to sit there and watch a shooter play steel challenge on a popper and not do anything......is inexcusable.

4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all

competitors. Range equipment failure includes, the displacement of

paper targets, the premature activation of metal or moving targets, the

failure to reset moving targets or steel targets, the malfunction of

mechanically or electrically operated equipment, and the failure of

props such as openings, ports, and barriers.

I think the problem lies in a popper being used to check PF. Some are old and don't work right, others are not set right, or change during the COF. This should not penalize a shooter, but OFTEN does. Again, I don't want to see poppers go away, but I would like to see some more thought put in to how we handle them in a COF.

I've been told that you can not stop a shooter for a popper that doesn't fall and that their only option is to drive it or move on and call for calibration. I submit that if they had to take more than one shot/hit in the calibration zone the COF is no longer equitable. Looking at 4.6.1 I see I can call REF for a "mechanical" prop that malfunctioned. I know it wasn't written to cover this as there are specific rules to deal with poppers, but I think I can make this call since a popper IS a mechanical equipment.

IF this happens to a shooter, under my control, I shall stop them and check calibration. It's the right and fair thing to do. The argument that a previous shooter may protest isn't valid since I am running everyone on that stage and know who shot what and where.

Thoughts...?

Edited September 16, 2009 by JThompson

[Thomas Moore]

I too would like to see the rules change on the poppers. I feel if you pass chrono and you have a full diameter center hit on a popper and it doesn't go down, then that should be range failure and a reshoot for the competitor.

[MarkCO]

What might be worth some thought is allowing an RO to do just that. If I see a solid hit in the proper calibration area, I have the power to stop a shooter and check calibration. This would be the CRO/RO call and not the shooter, the call would be final and not open for arbitration. The more I think about that one the better I like it. This would take any gaming out of it and leave it in the hands of the RO. I have no doubt, if what I heard about this case is correct, that I would have made the call and checked calibration.

Downsides?

JT

That is definately worth some thought. Rules have and do change, that is not the issue. When this has been a problem at Nationals for what, about 3 years now, we as USPSA members have a duty to be engaged in this discussion. Has anyone sent the BOD a proposal to modify the rules on this issue? If yes, what happened? If not, several people should.

Based on the eyewitness accounts and remedial action afterwards, it is apparent that the popper was improper. However the rules DO account for this, and apparently, after at least the first hit, she made a choice consistent with the rules to continue engaging it.

Moverfive, I may have missed it, but where in the Rulebook does it allow RO discretion to set aside "clear" rules and impart your opinion into the manipulation of a course of fire? On the spot opinion based rulings do NOT have a place in USPSA! That is because opinions are just that. USPSA, just like the NFL, NHL, etc. have rules to establish the "box." The job of the range officials are to apply those rules in the same manner everytime. Do you call REF at 3 shots or 4? What if there is one good hit and then one bad hit then one good one? Is that 2 or 3 hits? Reasonable is to enforce the rules as written! The place for your opinion, if you feel they are not sufficient, is to get your area director to agree with you and submit a proposal.