Larrys1911 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Team Sand Sent me an email telling me I need to work on Target transitions. Thanks Matt. I spend about 1/4 as much time on tgt transitions as I do reloads and Draws. which means I never should have gotten that e-mail When I live fire practice tgt trans I can surprise myself on occasion. I tell myself what I am going to do and do it. In a match it seems like ALL the little things I know about shooting get forgotten. TGT trans, Sight focus, watching the reload in. keeping the finger on the front of the mag, dont move your head on the draw. Look at the spot your moving to. Visualizing (there never seems to be enough time for that) ALL the little stuff that really makes a difference gets forgotten and I may do it I may not. Is this a visualization thing? Should I be that detailed in my visulation? I have a hard time thinking more dryfire would help me. I have done enough reloads in the last 9 months that NOTHING in my reload should have to conciously be thought about...... I have been noticing that the little stuff that I intend to try in a match seems to be totally forgotten until the ride home. This time I SOed (as I do at most sanctioned matches I shoot) and I think that hurts me sometimes. I guess I am not as checked out on this visulation thing as I thought I was. I hope I am making sense. TIA Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Just needs to be ingrained enough in practice to the point where it becomes the natural way to do things. Also, it helps to try and develop patience when shooting in a match...although that is probably one of the hardest things to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luiz Francisco Ramos Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Larrys1911 I´ve never seen someone decribe so clear what I feel !! Ramos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Larry, I agree with Luiz. Excellent description. I wonder what others have to say. As far as reloads go: I shoot revover and reloads are a fundamental skill there, more than in any other division. And Jake is right. I all comes down to practicing, practicing, practicing, until it becomes natural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Larry, You might experiment with jotting down a list of a half dozen or less "concepts" you wish to employ at the next match, and then be sure to review them shortly before you shoot. And instead of "making" yourself do what you've trained, think of how you could best "allow" what you've trained to manifest in the match. What would be the "conditions favorable" that you could create, which would allow your training to come forth when needed. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Brian's suggestion seems a good one (not unexpectedly ). From your post I gather that you're at least aware of what you are "not doing". However I still think that having a friend watch and coach/train you would also help. I have had occasions where I was not aware of any "fault" I was making until a friend told me about it. And even if you know afterwards what is going wrong, I think that a friend to train with might help. He could walk behind the RO to watch you and make exact note of what is going wrong and discuss that with you between stages. That could speed up the improvement process because you don't have to wait until it all comes back to you during the ride home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SherlockWV Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Your post reminds me of my golfing days. "Muscle Memory". When a person starts to develop a particular swing problem and they repeat it time after time, the mind tells you that it feels right even though it is wrong. On the other hand, when you or someone watching you makes a constructive suggestion and you apply it, it "feels" totally wrong. The thing is to practice the proper procedures to the point where the muscle memory is retrained and the mind/body are in sync. With all due respect to BE, if I took a list of things to do one the day of a match it would totall blow me away. However the merit of making a list and incorporating it during practice would work for me. Also, I have found over the years that I have a tendancy to over complicate things. So for me, I make a list then only pick out 1 or 2 things that I want to work on. A friend of mine stated at lunch one time. God, ask Jerry what time it is and he will tell you how to build a watch. I have internalized that statement as a guide to KISS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 SherlockWV I agree with your golf analogy. Reading the Tips section in Golf Digest PUT 5 strokes on my game. Need to go to the T box and let your body do it and stop thinking.. I also agree that making a list of the things you need to do in a match, for me, would be only a practice routine. Too many things to think about really screws up most shooters, especially at matches. matches = calm and confident = good results Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 I don't know that Brian is talking about "thinking" of things while shooting. Perhaps he is advocating the planting of a seed in the subconsious. A pre-program that allows the desired results to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SherlockWV Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 The more I think about it I tend to agree with Flexmoney that Brian is not talking about thinking so much as internalized mental discipline. I do think that my "golf" senerio has merit in so far as muscle memory. After reading more of BE's comments on different things, I am starting to get a feel for where I think he is coming from. (list of things to do at match excluded). Somewhere on the site is a thread about Zen. Reading through the responses took me back to the 60's where I was involved with eastern religions etc. I became really familiar with Zen concepts and the quieting of the mind & two seperate martial art forms. Paramount to the ongoing training is training the mind through meditation. As I understand it or at least my approach to USPSA & IDPA is that of a martial art. At age 58 I still employ meditation in my life. Through meditation one can see how cluttered our minds are with just the business of living, and with meditation one can clear the mind so that fundamental foundation principles can be deeply emplanted in our sub conscious. I do not want to get too weird here but I know that I know when I am "centered" mentally, my physical actions follow suit. The physical action becomes an auto response of the sub conscious. Example, 1 martial art rule; rember the block because the punch will always be there. I think that this is also true for our sport/discilpline. If we quiet our minds and meditate on the principles we wish to work on or enhance, the body follows. I just started shooting again after 14 years and there is no doubt in my mind that the floor work that I still do which includes punches and kicks has helped me tremendously. Hand and foot speed with accuracy plus visualization of what I want to accomplish all contribute to my shooting. To get back down to earth a little before you all drive me off of the site, there are two things that most anyone can do that will enhance their ability. 1- work on a speed bag & 2- jump rope. Sorry for the rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Trying to make it happen is a recipie for disaster. The key is to create a set that allows you to manifest your ability on demand as you drive yourself, and the pistol, through the course of fire in a state of total awareness. I can't believe I just said that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 I can't believe I just said that. But you did and you spoke wisely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmist10 Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 One of those – maybe I shouldn’t share (out of embarrassment) but this is a good example of doing what you train. Background: four-gun sharpshooter in IDPA. I’ve been shooting revolver exclusively for almost two years (trying to “master” one gun and technique). The only time I’ve switched to the auto was for night matches (three times in the past two years). Last Sunday I attended a local club match and thought I would use my newly acquired Kimber Stainless Target II in 9mm. First stage: Sitting in a chair – at buzzer, stand and move to P1 and retrieve pistol from inside box – mag sitting on barrel outside box. Hold mag in weak-hand while engaging T1 and T2 with 3 rds each. Then move down “hallway” and then engage T3 and T4 with 3 rds each (don’t hit the non-threat) reload from slide lock with mag you are carrying in hand. Pretty simple stage, fast and fun At the buzzer, retrieved pistol and mag, engaged T1 and T2 with three rounds…..RELOAD… DOH!!! Out of habit I reloaded after six rounds….granted it was a good “Tac-reload” but it was not what we were supposed to do and I received a procedural – it was what I have trained to do for two years….. Needless to say, the auto guys that know me as a revolver guy had a heck of a lot of fun at my expense…. After two years of shooting the revolver I finally remember to reload after six rounds....when I have four more left Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 redmist 10 You viloated one of the most sacred rules of the competition shooter. Never go to a match with untested gear, be it gun, ammo, magazines, leather gear, new vest, etc. Murphy's Law will get you EVERY time. Not raggin' on you, it is just one of those things we all learn, usually from hindsight. Kind of like the analogy of the lawyer who is never supposed to ask any question, to which they do not already know the answer, the shooter shouldn't use any gear they they don't know that it will work, every time. This includes the mental gyrations of shooting a different type of gun. Bet you don't do that again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmist10 Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 I didn't say I had never shot the gun. Just never shot it in a match. I had been shooting it all week without a snag. The gun worked flawlessly (except the factory mags are worthless, Mec-gar mags worked perfectly too!) No, I definitely try not to break "the golden rule" when it comes to equipment. I have seen too many shooters test new guns, mags, speedloaders (or holders), etc. in matches with disasterous results. The trouble was not the gun but with "the bean" - the gray matter - In match conditions I was trained to do something completely different. Like drool when a dinner bell rings, what? I wouldn't take that bet if I were you....just based on experience... Feel free to rag my sorry butt anytime. It is usually a good learning experience. When I first started competitive shooting I was shooting a Standard Drill (with a 1911 .45) and after loading and holstering the SO leaned in close and quietly whispered..."you just clicked off your safety"...to which I smugly replied..."no way." After standing on the line (safely facing down range) the thought began to get to me....did I or didn't I....so I checked it...he was right (he patiently watched and waited for me to realize my mistake). Turns out he was a pretty accomplished shooter and from that point on I LISTEN. I might always learn as fast as I want but I try to hear and apply as best I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SherlockWV Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 Tightloop, your critque of the situtation is interesting but I get a different "take" on this particular situation. Now, I do not have your experience so bear with me. I interperted redmist's comments as a response to 2 years of "conditoned reflex actions". Once the buzzer went off he reverted to his old conditioning. Similarly, I recently moved from a Glock that was cutting my hand to a beavertailed 1911. Although I practiced for a week with the 1911, at the very 1st stage of the Match, the buzzer went off and I came up, indexed and pulled the trigger without even thinking about the saftey. It happened again on the 4th stage. The "in between stages" stunk because I was "thinking" so hard about getting the saftly off. Now it has been 3 weeks and another match under my belt and I am getting used to the 1911 with dry drills and live fire. But it has taken longer than expected. Maybe it is just my old age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 SherlockWV Maybe I was stating what I thought was the obvious. His post is the reason that I admire all the multi platform Masters on this forum. I am sure I would do the same thing redmist and you did. Practice is where you work out those kinds of problems, and I would never go to a match (if I were trying to do well) unless I had enough practice, (read repetitions) under my belt in practice that I was confident I would not revert to a conditioned response which was inappropriate to the one I sought. I try to adhere to the KISS principal so I do not do those kinds of things. Your shooting platform is a personal choice, no arguments there, but when you mix them from week to week, you encourage the kind of problems you encountered. One of the huge underlying threads of this entire forum is to get yourself physically and mentally to the point that when you get to the line, you can turn off your mind and just let your body do the needed actions. Call it anything you want, trying, anxiety, rushing, lack of visual acuity; if you go to the line with too many thoughts burdening your mind, for me at least it has never worked out very well. Guess I just do not have the mental agility to get it done. My grandfather told me never to change horses in the middle of a stream, guess that is what I was trying to say... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmist10 Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 Thanks Tightloop! Good comments. I agree with your grandfather and that is why I have tried to stay with one type of shooting/gun over the last couple of years. I figured I should try to compete with one gun (jack of all trades, master of none?) and become more proficient. I view local matches as a good opportunity to discover what I need to work on for major matches. The use of the Kimber was a trial by fire just to see how it would perform....instead I figured out how I would perform which was probably more insightful I have been kicking around the idea of sticking with just the Kimber as my "ESP" gun until I can make EX in IDPA....then go back to revolver until I make MA - which might take a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SherlockWV Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 Tightloop - I too aplaud your comments and the teaching of your grandfather. The reminder of KISS was very appropriate for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 Redmist 10 Why limit your progress by shooting your 1911 till you make Exp. The difference between Master and Expert is that all the sandbaggers are Expert. I think the intimidation factor on all shooters is profound when you sign in as MASTER, and diminishes with each classification downward. Let them know YOU are the one to beat, there is a new Sheriff in town, whatever you want to call it, but self confidence is one of the factors in making Master; get it, use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmist10 Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Don't worry Tightloop, the day I make Master in ANYTHING is the day they'll sign my card....but realistically I think I'm closer to moving up to EX in all four than Master in any. I think ESP will be the toughest for me to reach the next level....that is an assumption based upon the progress of others I have witnessed; however, I might be different. I agree about the mindset of a winner. If you get that you can devote all your energies to polishing the mechanical aspects. I might shoot ESP for the entire year, who knows. I beleive there is a lot of merit to dropping one thing you have been super-concentrating on and taking up something fresh. At some point you go back to the first item and maybe get a fresh set of eyes and pickup something you may have missed the first time. At least that is the theory . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Yes, as Flex suggested my former post was not to indicate that you should think your way through a stage. Of course not. I'll try to put it differently... Ever notice how we often "learn" the same lesson over and over? Like - if only I wouldn't have rushed, I would've probably shot that stage okay. When I've noticed patterns of similar concepts I tend to forget when I should have been "remembering" them the most - at the critical moment - it may help to jot down a one sentence note, then look at it when on deck or in the hole. This helps to bring it in when it mattters. Although my range notebook may accumulate a few pages of such concepts, when I'm practicing or at a match, I'll pick one or two that seem appropriate at that time. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SherlockWV Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 benos, Are you in essence saying that by running over a short checklist of your notes helps to bring these items up to a more active mental condition....then you revert to "Awarness, Focus etc." and let it happen? I am just beginning your book and to be "thinking" about the items on the checklist runs contrary to "the happining" and what I think you just said. But it makes sense (to me) to "trigger" certain things then relax and approach the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Yea, that's pretty much it. We often forget what we shouldn't when overwhelmed. A carefully structured key sentence may help avoid that. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted November 12, 2003 Author Share Posted November 12, 2003 Thanks everyone. Brian, would you mind giving me a couple from your notebook? Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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