Weighing Loaded rounds

[steveyacht]

I am new to metallic reloading. I loaeded up a couple hundred 9mm, with 125 grain LRN, 3.9 Grains of Solo 1000 and Remington primer. I went to the range and experienced a couple of squib loads. To be safe, I packed everything up and went home. I took a primer, the bullet and a cleaned, unprimed case, weighed them then added 3.9gr. Balanced the scale and proceeded weighing. (Old Ohaus balance beam scale but very accurate). I found many that did not raise the beam at all, and some that moved it all the way.

When setting up the Press I always throw at least 8 to 10 powder samples, weighing each, they are dead on. I then periodically do the same about every 25 to 50 rounds. Everything appears normal. I look carefully before putting the bullet on to make sure there is powder in the case. I sample weighed the bullet batch and they are very close in weight.

OK, here is the question, what would you consider to be a reasonable standard deviation in finished round weights? I am getting a bit gun shy of any additional squibs, especially in any kind of steel plate or USPSA event where there are very fast double taps.

Suggestions?

[BritinUSA]

There's enough variation in the case weight to cause problems with trying to load completed rounds, especially if you have a light load. I set up a lamp near my reloading press that allows me to clearly see inside the case before I put the bullet in.

For the rounds you already have I suggest using them for accuracy practice, try to get a small a group as possible, slow-fire. It will help trigger control and prevent you from following a squib with a loaded one, which can really ruin your day.

[bofe954]

I had a powder drop issue once and knew I made some squibs. They were mixed into about 500 rounds. I tried the weighing thing like you and it wasn't conclusive. Brass, bullet all have enough variance so you can't really tell a lot of the time.

I set aside the really heavy stuff for practice, pulled the stuff that was a little heavy or light. I found the squibs, I pulled a lot of bullets that had powder, I never shot a squib from the bunch.

Whatever you do, none of that batch goes to a match.

[BSeevers]

The light over the station and looking is the only way.

[kaiserb]

There's enough variation in the case weight to cause problems with trying to load completed rounds, especially if you have a light load. I set up a lamp near my reloading press that allows me to clearly see inside the case before I put the bullet in.

For the rounds you already have I suggest using them for accuracy practice, try to get a small a group as possible, slow-fire. It will help trigger control and prevent you from following a squib with a loaded one, which can really ruin your day.

One thing I like to use in conjunction with the good light is a bicycle helmet rear view mirror mounted on the press. That way I can look forward into the mirror and see the powder charge in the case below.

[CJDOUBLETAP]

This kind of thing happened to me one time too. I loaded about 300 then realized that the was no powder in the cases....

Don't rely on weighting them. I would just pull them, all of them. It will save you time when you get to the range and start shooting. Not having to clear squibs every other round...

[G-ManBart]

There's enough variation in the case weight to cause problems with trying to load completed rounds, especially if you have a light load. I set up a lamp near my reloading press that allows me to clearly see inside the case before I put the bullet in.

For the rounds you already have I suggest using them for accuracy practice, try to get a small a group as possible, slow-fire. It will help trigger control and prevent you from following a squib with a loaded one, which can really ruin your day.

+1

This is exactly why I suggest a press with auto-indexing and auto-powder drop. Unless something breaks or you run the powder measure empty, there's no easy way to get a squib or double charge.

[Jeff686]

Umm... squibs are no fun, but are they really squibs?

You mentioned that you worry about doube taps. I don't really understand this statement, since every squib I've seen won't cycle the slide. To be dangerous, you have to cycle the slide manually then pull the trigger. Unless you mistake a squib for a FTF, you should be OK.

Now, if you're talking about LOW powder, that's another story. Anyone know if you can pick a powder charge strong enough to cycle the slide, but weak enough to not shoot the bullet?

[GrumpyOne]

Umm... squibs are no fun, but are they really squibs?

You mentioned that you worry about doube taps. I don't really understand this statement, since every squib I've seen won't cycle the slide. To be dangerous, you have to cycle the slide manually then pull the trigger. Unless you mistake a squib for a FTF, you should be OK.

Now, if you're talking about LOW powder, that's another story. Anyone know if you can pick a powder charge strong enough to cycle the slide, but weak enough to not shoot the bullet?

In a match one night, I saw a guy fire a squib (It was a Caspian .45), which cycled the slide, popped another round into battery, then he fired again. Didn't technically blow up the gun, what it did though was quite strange. It even cycled on the second round, pushing the first round out, lodging the second in the barrel, then bulging the barrel AFTER the slide was in the rearward postion, not letting the slide go back to the forward position to battery . Didn't hurt the frame or the slide, but he had to take a Dremel tool to cut the barrel off just in front of the bushing (while the slide was in the rear position), just to get the slide to drop so he could break it down. He was new to re-loading. The next week (I swear this is the truth! I have several witnesses! ), he did the exact same thing with another Caspian, except this time, it didn't cycle the slide back on the second round, but bulged the barrel inside the slide, where you could not pull it back. Not even enough to get it back to a position where you could take it down to get the barrel out. We told him that if he did come back to our matches (very nicely mind you, as he was pretty upset that he had ruined two beautiful Caspian .45's in the span of one week!), he would have to shoot factory ammo, as the next time, something could go flying and do some severe injury to a bystander. He came back one more time, to sell all of his re-loading stuff. He does have a very nice Caspian paper weight now, though! We never determined if it was low powder, wet powder, no powder, as to why the squibs. On the first occasion, i loaned him my Springfield Trophy Match to finish the match with, under the condition he shot my ammo.

[Graham Smith]

If you sort all the ammo by headstamp and weigh about 20 of each type, you should have a fair idea of what is average for that case. Take anything that is off the average by more than a couple grains and pull them and weigh the powder. If you have more than a few that are short, I would consider scrapping the whole batch.

I don't know how dense Solo 1000 is or how much 3.9 fills the case, but there is said to be a positional sensitivity to some powders such that if the muzzle is tipped down so the powder can move to the front of the case just before the shot is fired, the powder does not completely burn. I don't know how true this is but it's easy to test. Next time you crono, shoot 10 rounds tilting the muzzle up before each shot then a second round of 10 tilting the muzzle down. If you get a consistent variation, then you may be seeing the effects of position sensitivity. Combine that with a low powder load and you've got squib potential.

[mildot1]

Wieghing 6.5-284 cases I have seen as much as 14 grians difference in virgin brass. I know that I'm referencing a much larger case but I still think you could see as much as 4 grains diff in a loaded pistol round.

[JeffWard]

If you sort all the ammo by headstamp and weigh about 20 of each type, you should have a fair idea of what is average for that case. Take anything that is off the average by more than a couple grains and pull them and weigh the powder. If you have more than a few that are short, I would consider scrapping the whole batch.

I don't know how dense Solo 1000 is or how much 3.9 fills the case, but there is said to be a positional sensitivity to some powders such that if the muzzle is tipped down so the powder can move to the front of the case just before the shot is fired, the powder does not completely burn. I don't know how true this is but it's easy to test. Next time you crono, shoot 10 rounds tilting the muzzle up before each shot then a second round of 10 tilting the muzzle down. If you get a consistent variation, then you may be seeing the effects of position sensitivity. Combine that with a low powder load and you've got squib potential.

3.9gr of Solo will fill the case of a 9mm within a 1/4" of the top.

I good mounted light, illuminating the powder-filled case from the backside will fix things. Keep your focus on the bullet seating station. You should be able to load empty brass in the deprime station blind, by feel, anyway. My eyes are always on the seating station... Thousands of rounds, no squibs. A few dead primers....

JW

[UW Mitch]

A friend who I was loading with had a couple squibs. First he tried weighing but as pointed out, the variation in brass weight was greater than the powder charge. He's a high end audiophile, so he hooked up a mic and some headphones and listened for the powder shaking around in the loaded rounds. He was able to pick out all the ones that didn't have powder and disassemble them. Worked for him.

~Mitch

[Jeff686]

Umm... squibs are no fun, but are they really squibs?

You mentioned that you worry about doube taps. I don't really understand this statement, since every squib I've seen won't cycle the slide. To be dangerous, you have to cycle the slide manually then pull the trigger. Unless you mistake a squib for a FTF, you should be OK.

Now, if you're talking about LOW powder, that's another story. Anyone know if you can pick a powder charge strong enough to cycle the slide, but weak enough to not shoot the bullet?

In a match one night, I saw a guy fire a squib (It was a Caspian .45), which cycled the slide, popped another round into battery, then he fired again. Didn't technically blow up the gun, what it did though was quite strange. It even cycled on the second round, pushing the first round out, lodging the second in the barrel, then bulging the barrel AFTER the slide was in the rearward postion, not letting the slide go back to the forward position to battery . Didn't hurt the frame or the slide, but he had to take a Dremel tool to cut the barrel off just in front of the bushing (while the slide was in the rear position), just to get the slide to drop so he could break it down. He was new to re-loading. The next week (I swear this is the truth! I have several witnesses! ), he did the exact same thing with another Caspian, except this time, it didn't cycle the slide back on the second round, but bulged the barrel inside the slide, where you could not pull it back. Not even enough to get it back to a position where you could take it down to get the barrel out. We told him that if he did come back to our matches (very nicely mind you, as he was pretty upset that he had ruined two beautiful Caspian .45's in the span of one week!), he would have to shoot factory ammo, as the next time, something could go flying and do some severe injury to a bystander. He came back one more time, to sell all of his re-loading stuff. He does have a very nice Caspian paper weight now, though! We never determined if it was low powder, wet powder, no powder, as to why the squibs. On the first occasion, i loaned him my Springfield Trophy Match to finish the match with, under the condition he shot my ammo.

Never seen that before! Every primer-only squib I've seen just goes 'pop', no slide motion. I wonder what happended to that guy's load...

A comment about the original post: If the problem persists, maybe try a powder cop die.

[GrumpyOne]

A friend who I was loading with had a couple squibs. First he tried weighing but as pointed out, the variation in brass weight was greater than the powder charge. He's a high end audiophile, so he hooked up a mic and some headphones and listened for the powder shaking around in the loaded rounds. He was able to pick out all the ones that didn't have powder and disassemble them. Worked for him.

~Mitch

+1 Very Ingenious! I would have never thought it possible!

[DougCarden]

Dont rely on technology all the time.... I had my bellcrank screw loosen up on my Dillon powder measure when I was loading .223 of course.... . Here is where weighing the rounds work well. Pistol is inconclusive, but with the high charge weights with the rifle loads you can find the offenders very easily, assuming you are dropping 25+ grains and then you find ones that are minus 25+grains......

Something to try....

Good luck,

DougC

[bball97]

I am new to metallic reloading. I loaeded up a couple hundred 9mm, with 125 grain LRN, 3.9 Grains of Solo 1000 and Remington primer. I went to the range and experienced a couple of squib loads. To be safe, I packed everything up and went home. I took a primer, the bullet and a cleaned, unprimed case, weighed them then added 3.9gr. Balanced the scale and proceeded weighing. (Old Ohaus balance beam scale but very accurate). I found many that did not raise the beam at all, and some that moved it all the way.

When setting up the Press I always throw at least 8 to 10 powder samples, weighing each, they are dead on. I then periodically do the same about every 25 to 50 rounds. Everything appears normal. I look carefully before putting the bullet on to make sure there is powder in the case. I sample weighed the bullet batch and they are very close in weight.

OK, here is the question, what would you consider to be a reasonable standard deviation in finished round weights? I am getting a bit gun shy of any additional squibs, especially in any kind of steel plate or USPSA event where there are very fast double taps.

Suggestions?

I had the same problem weighing the loaded rounds. Different casings weigh substantially different. Oh well, that extra scale that I bought for that purpose is now for sale!