Semi new shooter(less then 5 matches)

[ima45dv8]

One more thing -- I usually shoot double-plugged. I consider it MY responsibility to let the RO know that and that he needs to hold the timer close enough for me to hear it. Because of this personal choice, if I have ANY doubt, I won't draw my gun until I confirm with a question whether the MR command has been given.

If I wasn't double-plugged, and was simply garden-variety hard o' hearing, I'd still consider it my responsibility to confirm the commands I hear.....or THINK I hear.

[Alan Meek]

Alan, they will often verbally repeat the required duties for that string of fire, more of asking confirmation. I ask everyone, even the guys that have been shooting for 18+ years, and to this date no one seems to mind.

I mind. It is not a range command. Unless I ask a question all I want to hear when I am on the line is range commands.

If the shooter can't pay attention to the walk through it's not my fault. I will answer any questions but I never ask if they understand the COF. I give them the courtesy of not assuming they can't read or listen.

So riddle me this, If I am on the line and you turn and say "range is hot" or do you understand, What do you do if I draw my gun and start loading up ? There really isnt anything you can say or do because the error is actually yours. Thanks to an Iraqi mortar my right ear is almost worthless I hear sounds fine I just have problems m aking out words. So generally what I hear from the ro is WA WAA WAA WA, (insert Charlie Brown teacher talk here).

I would DQ you at that point because you did not follow the specific range commands that we covered during the new shooter briefing prior to the start of the match. "Going Hot" and "any Questions" has nothing to do with LAMR. If you interpret "going hot" or "any questions" with LAMR, then perhaps we have an English comprehension issue.

Now at level 2 and above matches, the commands should be followed and are at our club (though we still use "going hot").

So Jack, do you have specific range commands that are different from the official USPSA range commands?

The USPSA rules are for all USPSA matches, doesn't change except for the exceptions noted for Level 1 matches.

Range Commands are the same for Level 1 USPSA matches up to the ISPC World Shoot. And should be given as such. If I am at a match and improper range commands are being used I will request before I get to start position to use the proper range commands. If you are the RO running shooters on the stage take the extra seconds to make a quick check to make sure all people assisting reset the stage are back behind the shooting areas. I have RO'ed individuals that are double plugged and even deaf. Do you really think they will hear a range is going hot statement if they are down range. As an RO your biggest asset to ensure the stage is ready to start a competitor is your own two eyes. As the RO are you not responsible to 1.) Ensure the Safety of all competitors on your stage and 2.) Ensure that all competitors receive the same considerations.

I also work on educating the use of the proper range commands.

[ima45dv8]

Alan, you're close to the situation as an AD (that's "Area Director", not "Accidental Discharge" for those that haven't been following along), so I have to ask -- is it prohibited by our rulebook to talk to competitors? Are we allowed ONLY the range Commands defined in 8.3.1 through 8.3.6.1 inclusive as acceptable communications with shooters on the line?

Once we say, "Make Ready", I'm all business and proceed according to Hoyle. But before then, can't we ask someone if they have questions?

[kgunz11]

My "range is going hot, eyes and ears" is more for the galley of yapping shooters behind me than for the shooter, and I've already confirmed everyone is uprange before I say it. It reminds everyone to make sure they have their eyes/ears on, and I only typically say it when there is steel on the stage. It's to get everyone to quieten down some and pay attention, as well make sure they are in a safe fan area.

[Jack Suber]

Alan, they will often verbally repeat the required duties for that string of fire, more of asking confirmation. I ask everyone, even the guys that have been shooting for 18+ years, and to this date no one seems to mind.

I mind. It is not a range command. Unless I ask a question all I want to hear when I am on the line is range commands.

If the shooter can't pay attention to the walk through it's not my fault. I will answer any questions but I never ask if they understand the COF. I give them the courtesy of not assuming they can't read or listen.

So riddle me this, If I am on the line and you turn and say "range is hot" or do you understand, What do you do if I draw my gun and start loading up ? There really isnt anything you can say or do because the error is actually yours. Thanks to an Iraqi mortar my right ear is almost worthless I hear sounds fine I just have problems m aking out words. So generally what I hear from the ro is WA WAA WAA WA, (insert Charlie Brown teacher talk here).

I would DQ you at that point because you did not follow the specific range commands that we covered during the new shooter briefing prior to the start of the match. "Going Hot" and "any Questions" has nothing to do with LAMR. If you interpret "going hot" or "any questions" with LAMR, then perhaps we have an English comprehension issue.

Now at level 2 and above matches, the commands should be followed and are at our club (though we still use "going hot").

So Jack, do you have specific range commands that are different from the official USPSA range commands?

The USPSA rules are for all USPSA matches, doesn't change except for the exceptions noted for Level 1 matches.

Range Commands are the same for Level 1 USPSA matches up to the ISPC World Shoot. And should be given as such. If I am at a match and improper range commands are being used I will request before I get to start position to use the proper range commands. If you are the RO running shooters on the stage take the extra seconds to make a quick check to make sure all people assisting reset the stage are back behind the shooting areas. I have RO'ed individuals that are double plugged and even deaf. Do you really think they will hear a range is going hot statement if they are down range. As an RO your biggest asset to ensure the stage is ready to start a competitor is your own two eyes. As the RO are you not responsible to 1.) Ensure the Safety of all competitors on your stage and 2.) Ensure that all competitors receive the same considerations.

I also work on educating the use of the proper range commands.

Alan,

Nope. We/I don't have different range commands. Going hot is not a command. It is a notification that we are about to start a shooter. It is a club practice (and yes our club has rules that supercede USPSA rules - for example, our club will not allow steel closer than 10 yds). Anyway, going hot is not a command and is usually stated before the shooter is even at the start position. It is something I say when I, as the RO with the timer, am the last one to the start position and am checking for people downrange and that everything is set and pasted. It has nothing to do with the course of fire.

As stated previously ( and in the initial post), we tend to work a little more with new shooters. If I have a new shooter at the line I will ask if they have any questions. This is not a command and the course of fire has not started because I have not told the shooter that he or she can make ready. It is a courtesy I offer new shooters to get them comfortable and for me to feel them out (something I do as a firearms instructor). I have learned that with people who are new to shooting sports, the last thing they need is someone barking commands at them. Doing so adds to their stress and possibly increases the odds of them not paying attention to what they are doing and subsequently doing something unsafe. Nothing in the rules say that I can not speak to the shooter other than issuing commands. Nothing in the rules say I can't say "hello", "How are you doing", etc. Speaking and being polite is not giving anyone special treatment.

I beleive the commands were changed to accomodate international shooters who had a tough time understanding English. The changes were to streamline the commands so they could follow easily. I spent a lot of time shooting in South America (my family is from Ecuador). The common complaint I heard was that people speak English differently in different parts of the U.S. (especially the South) and it was hard for them to understand what we were saying.

Again, we use the range commands as specified when the COF starts and the shooter enters the start position.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Jack Suber

[ima45dv8]

The common complaint I heard was that people speak English differently in different parts of the U.S. (especially the South) and it was hard for them to understand what we were saying.

I hope that I'm not, but accept that I probably am, guilty of that.

Jack nailed it. There are mandated commands to be given which specify the beginning and the end of the shooter's attempt at the CoF, and a few that are required in between. Nothing says we can't converse with the shooter before or after. If that's the intent, the rulebook is silent on that point.

[Nik Habicht]

The common complaint I heard was that people speak English differently in different parts of the U.S. (especially the South) and it was hard for them to understand what we were saying.

I hope that I'm not, but accept that I probably am, guilty of that.

Jack nailed it. There are mandated commands to be given which specify the beginning and the end of the shooter's attempt at the CoF, and a few that are required in between. Nothing says we can't converse with the shooter before or after. If that's the intent, the rulebook is silent on that point.

Mark,

you're right --- there's nothing prohibiting conversation prior to issuing the range commands. NROI is teaching that it's bad practice however.....

Best practice (according to NROI) would be to reset/clear the stage, and then have the RO running shooters call the competitor to the line/approach the competitor in the start location and begin with "Make Ready...."

[Alan Meek]

There is nothing that says you cannot converse with a shooter, but if the RO wants to start a conversation with the shooter when he is about ready to start the stage does that make any sense. That is the time for business.

Jack, thanks for the clarification of when you use the range is going hot. There should be enough of a separation as you have outlined to avoid any miscommunication.

[Jack Suber]

There is nothing that says you cannot converse with a shooter, but if the RO wants to start a conversation with the shooter when he is about ready to start the stage does that make any sense. That is the time for business.

Jack, thanks for the clarification of when you use the range is going hot. There should be enough of a separation as you have outlined to avoid any miscommunication.

No worries, Alan. I think we are all on the same page when it comes down to safety.

I don't that Mark was stating that he would have a conversation. Greeting someone is not a conversation. Its just a habit because I was brought up that way. When I am ROing though, I can tell when it is appropriate and when it is not. I have been doing this long enough to know and recognize shooters that do not object to this and those who do.

Take care.

[ima45dv8]

I agree, Nik. But "Best practice" aside, there's no compelling prohibition that prevents me from asking a new-ish shooter if he understands the CoF. And there's nothing that prevents me from declaring the range "Hot". Both have their subtle, yet important reasons for doing so.

I don't do this as a matter of routine. It's based on the shooter on the line and whether the stage has sufficient vision barriers to cause me concern that someone is still down-range. Make no mistake -- I check for folks in front of the gun before saying Make Ready. But being doubly sure isn't a bad thing and according to the rules, isn't prohibited.

Frank fact of the matter -- by having a bit of personal interaction prior to "Make Ready", I've been able to put a number of newbies at ease. The last thing I want is a new person wound tight as a spring that might do something bad/stupid. I'm prepared for them to do so, but I'd prefer to prevent it.

[ima45dv8]

No worries, Alan. I think we are all on the same page when it comes down to safety.

I don't that Mark was stating that he would have a conversation. Greeting someone is not a conversation. Its just a habit because I was brought up that way. When I am ROing though, I can tell when it is appropriate and when it is not. I have been doing this long enough to know and recognize shooters that do not object to this and those who do.

Take care.

Thanks, Jack, for that statement. I'm NOT advocating a long conversation with the every competitor prior to the their attempt at the CoF. I only do this when I think the new-ish shooter is about to go into vapor-lock. Saying, "How you doing? Having a good match?" is not a long conversation and is not in my mind grounds for a call for interference (see 8.6 inclusive).

Let's keep this in perspective. As I said before, there's a number of new shooters who will be wound tight as a $2 watch. By letting them know someone nearby, particularly the RO, wants them to relax and do well is not a bad thing.

[Singlestack]

This has drifted from asking everybody to only asking new shooters. I am defiantly in the camp of asking new shooters but experienced shooters, no way.

[Jack Suber]

This has drifted from asking everybody to only asking new shooters. I am defiantly in the camp of asking new shooters but experienced shooters, no way.

I agree, John. No need for the experienced shooters. But I am going to greet you if I am your RO, just like I would with anyone other shooter that I know.

Then, there are the conversations I get when I step to the line because of the God-awful orange shirt I have to wear...

[Jack Suber]

No worries, Alan. I think we are all on the same page when it comes down to safety.

I don't that Mark was stating that he would have a conversation. Greeting someone is not a conversation. Its just a habit because I was brought up that way. When I am ROing though, I can tell when it is appropriate and when it is not. I have been doing this long enough to know and recognize shooters that do not object to this and those who do.

Take care.

Thanks, Jack, for that statement. I'm NOT advocating a long conversation with the every competitor prior to the their attempt at the CoF. I only do this when I think the new-ish shooter is about to go into vapor-lock. Saying, "How you doing? Having a good match?" is not a long conversation and is not in my mind grounds for a call for interference (see 8.6 inclusive).

Let's keep this in perspective. As I said before, there's a number of new shooters who will be wound tight as a $2 watch. By letting them know someone nearby, particularly the RO, wants them to relax and do well is not a bad thing.

Exactly. No harm done. Safety has not been compromised.

[Alan Meek]

This has drifted from asking everybody to only asking new shooters. I am defiantly in the camp of asking new shooters but experienced shooters, no way.

I agree, John. No need for the experienced shooters. But I am going to greet you if I am your RO, just like I would with anyone other shooter that I know.

Then, there are the conversations I get when I step to the line because of the God-awful orange shirt I have to wear...

I agree with the greeting, I usually try to do that standing directly in front of them, but I can't post how I am usually greeted

On the shirt John, just start wearing a different color. Like maybe a light fuscia

Alan

[Singlestack]

This has drifted from asking everybody to only asking new shooters. I am defiantly in the camp of asking new shooters but experienced shooters, no way.

I agree, John. No need for the experienced shooters. But I am going to greet you if I am your RO, just like I would with anyone other shooter that I know.

Then, there are the conversations I get when I step to the line because of the God-awful orange shirt I have to wear...

I have no problem with that Jack. IMO, its not a "need" kinda thing for experienced shooters. Its more of a personal responsibility kinda thing. I expect the shooter to know what to do when they are up. If the shooter does not assume the correct starting position, I don't volunteer the information. I just wait until they either figure it out or ask.

If the RO has to explain the course of fire to every shooter its gonna be a long day.

[Spray_N_Prey]

ok I think a few people might have taken what me and a few others have mentioned about pre MR "banter". If the shooter is in the box, what comes out of my mouth is all business and Make Ready is the only thing that comes out of my mouth.

If it's a new shooter and it's our local match or a shooter that (yes some do) expect a quick word or two before the make ready, I am guilty of this, If it's an experienced shooter (and most PPL that have RO'd long enough just know) or an out of towner OR if i'm RO'ing somewhere else, it's purely business. I think out of the 2 super local clubs that I RO at, i'm considered the most "down to business" RO we have. I have even had a few people tell me, man you look mean when your RO'ing. I tell them I just take it serious.

They say this because i'm usually the clown when i'm standing around pasting. There are more than one shooter that gets up there and starts a conversation with me.

Now when I am the shooter, I don't even give a head nod when are you ready comes up. I NEVER talk with the RO that's my decision and it seems like most RO's know that stuff pretty quick.

I guess some of you have never been down to Arkansas, the MR command down there (at least some places) is "gas er up bubby", hehehe the first time I looked at the RO and said "does that mean to make ready?". It doesn't bother me and it's funny as hell to hear.

[Alan Meek]

This has drifted from asking everybody to only asking new shooters. I am defiantly in the camp of asking new shooters but experienced shooters, no way.

I agree, John. No need for the experienced shooters. But I am going to greet you if I am your RO, just like I would with anyone other shooter that I know.

Then, there are the conversations I get when I step to the line because of the God-awful orange shirt I have to wear...

I agree with the greeting, I usually try to do that standing directly in front of them, but I can't post how I am usually greeted

On the shirt Jack, just start wearing a different color. Like maybe a light fuscia

Alan

edited cause I am trying to multi task and it ain't working to well

[Jack Suber]

Alan,

I would LOVE to ditch the orange shirt. But lo, I am obligated because I lost a bet. Check out the "Honoring a Bet" thread under "What I like."

Its been a painful experience...

[Alan Meek]

Alan,

I would LOVE to ditch the orange shirt. But lo, I am obligated because I lost a bet. Check out the "Honoring a Bet" thread under "What I like."

Its been a painful experience...

I have read that thread, do you do that bad in Vegas?

[Singlestack]

Alan,

I would LOVE to ditch the orange shirt. But lo, I am obligated because I lost a bet. Check out the "Honoring a Bet" thread under "What I like."

Its been a painful experience...

Not what I heard...

[Jack Suber]

Alan,

I would LOVE to ditch the orange shirt. But lo, I am obligated because I lost a bet. Check out the "Honoring a Bet" thread under "What I like."

Its been a painful experience...

Not what I heard...

See! Nothing but abuse....

Alan, haven't had any bad experiences in Vegas. The orange is adversly affecting my shooting. As a matter of fact, one of my guns up and quit in protest. It did not want to be near the orange so it quit shooting for me...

[Lee King]

Alan,

I would LOVE to ditch the orange shirt. But lo, I am obligated because I lost a bet. Check out the "Honoring a Bet" thread under "What I like."

Its been a painful experience...

Not what I heard...

The orange is adversly affecting my shooting. As a matter of fact, one of my guns up and quit in protest. It did not want to be near the orange so it quit shooting for me...

Ahem... SC Limited 10 Champion..

[waxman]

What have you yahoo's done to my post while I was away???

[ima45dv8]

I have even had a few people tell me, man you look mean when your RO'ing. I tell them I just take it serious.

I used to get the same static from ex-wives when I was shooting 9-Ball for $. I gave the same answer as you.

I guess some of you have never been down to Arkansas, the MR command down there (at least some places) is "gas er up bubby", hehehe the first time I looked at the RO and said "does that mean to make ready?". It doesn't bother me and it's funny as hell to hear.

Nope. Never shot in Ar-Kansas ( ), though I used to provide support services in a shop in Ft. Smith. Nice town.

Around here we have a guy fond of, "Stoke it, Stroke it, Flick it, and Stick It".

As for David's question about what happened to his thread.....RO's happen!