Rule Question - Intent of "same capacity magazines"......

[boo radley]

This rule has always bothered me, because it's a rule that seems very clear in meaning and requires no interpretation of intent, yet it IS interpreted all the time to allow downloading of perfectly good magazines that do meet the division requirement.

If you ordered 8-round capacity magazines from MidwayUSA, and received 10-round capacity CMC PowerMags, would you buy the explanation that "it's the same capacity magazine -- just only put 8 rounds in it?"

Competitors must use the same capacity magazine throughout the match.

Where does it ever say anything about downloading and mixing and matching?? How could anything be more unambiguous?? There's even an example:

Example: if you start with a 7-round magazine you must use that capacity magazine throughout the match.

Again, nothing about: "if you start with a 7-round magazine, you must download all your other magazines to 7-rounds."

[persona non grata]

at least Jane and a few other people think that a rule book revision is in the works. If you think it is that poorly written of a rule, then go to Jane's forum here:

http://rulechat.beachbunnysoftware.com/

[Duane Thomas]

If you ordered 8-round capacity magazines from MidwayUSA, and received 10-round capacity CMC PowerMags, would you buy the explanation that "it's the same capacity magazine -- just only put 8 rounds in it?"

If the gun with magazine snapped into place would still fit in the box, sure.

A lot of people who own, for instance, Glocks, don't own 10-round magazines. Some of those who do - like me - have never been impressed with their reliability and simply choose to shoot the match with something we know works. For me that would be a downloaded 17-rounder.

This thread reminds of a discussion I had with an IDPA BoD member, shortly after the first Rule Book revision. We were discussing how the second book was much thicker than the first one, and he commented, "To start, there were a lot of things we thought were just common sense - that apparently aren't." Really, do we NEED someone to tell us, "You can use a 10-round magazine, or you can use a magazine the exact same size and length that could hold more ammo as long as you download it to 10 rounds. When we say 'same capacity' all we mean is to always start each stage with the same, legal number of rounds in each mag"? No. Common sense.

[uscbigdawg]

Duane, et. al.,

So to clarify this for me. The intent is to not have folks down load mags to do a speed reload...is my guess right? Meaning load 8 in one mag, 9 in another, 10 in another, etc.

Rich

[Duane Thomas]

Exactly.

[uscbigdawg]

Gotcha. Makes sense. Playing devils advocate then. If I was shooting a single stack 9mm and have 2 9rd mags and 2 10rd mags, they'd all have to be loaded at 9 rounds?

Rich

[Gregg K]

Duane, et. al.,

So to clarify this for me. The intent is to not have folks down load mags to do a speed reload...is my guess right? Meaning load 8 in one mag, 9 in another, 10 in another, etc.

Rich

There are no "speed reloads" in IDPA. There is a slide lock reload or a RWR/Tac load.

The intent of the rule is to make sure a competitor uses the same same capacity in their magazines on every stage. A shooter can not load is magazines differently on one stage to make the reload come at a better point in the COF.

Another example would be a shooter that uses a 1911 in ESP with 9 round magazines. They would start out at 9 plus 1. At a recent match there was an 11 round stage. The shooter can not use a 10 round magazine at the start to avoid the reload if he has been using 9 round magazines and has declared that as his magazine capacity.

Magazines must be loaded to max division capacity. If division capacity can not be achieved due to the mechanical limits of a magazine then the shooter will load to the limit of that magazine plus one in the tube.

[boo radley]

If you ordered 8-round capacity magazines from MidwayUSA, and received 10-round capacity CMC PowerMags, would you buy the explanation that "it's the same capacity magazine -- just only put 8 rounds in it?"

If the gun with magazine snapped into place would still fit in the box, sure.

A lot of people who own, for instance, Glocks, don't own 10-round magazines. Some of those who do - like me - have never been impressed with their reliability and simply choose to shoot the match with something we know works. For me that would be a downloaded 17-rounder.

That's different. In your example, all magazines either meet or exceed division capacity. You don't need to go past the first sentence in Rule 3. E.

What I'm talking about is deciding to plug a single Glock mag with a wooden block to a mechanical capacity of 9 rounds, because 9+1 is a competitive advantage for a specific match. Now, per every explanation I've heard for this rule it would be perfectly legal to start with this mag, then load all the rest of your 10 or 17-round 9mm Glock mags to 9.

Wooden block might be extreme, but a 7-round Tripp kit in a single 8-round Wilson mag isn't. Show up to the match, notice tons of paper and stages with even number of shots (12/14/etc)? Start with that mag.

[uscbigdawg]

Duane, et. al.,

So to clarify this for me. The intent is to not have folks down load mags to do a speed reload...is my guess right? Meaning load 8 in one mag, 9 in another, 10 in another, etc.

Rich

There are no "speed reloads" in IDPA. There is a slide lock reload or a RWR/Tac load.

The intent of the rule is to make sure a competitor uses the same same capacity in their magazines on every stage. A shooter can not load is magazines differently on one stage to make the reload come at a better point in the COF.

Another example would be a shooter that uses a 1911 in ESP with 9 round magazines. They would start out at 9 plus 1. At a recent match there was an 11 round stage. The shooter can not use a 10 round magazine at the start to avoid the reload if he has been using 9 round magazines and has declared that as his magazine capacity.

Magazines must be loaded to max division capacity. If division capacity can not be achieved due to the mechanical limits of a magazine then the shooter will load to the limit of that magazine plus one in the tube.

Church it up however, but the point being is to ENDUCE a slide lock reload so you can dump the mag and go. BTW...at least in MY real world experience. I never was worried about saving rounds for a "just in case". I wanted the fresh mag in the gun as fast as possible to keep rounds going down range.

I see the point in the round limits. Just want to see what the overall limitations are. I'm considering shooting IDPA soon as it works well with my work/school schedule.

Rich

[Shawn Knight]

How is loading a mag to induce a slide lock reload any different than shooting an extra round to get the same efect??

I have seen shooters do this on more than one occasion...

Just wondering how you make the determination on what the competitor did?

[persona non grata]

Now ya done it!

[Storm52]

This thread reminds of a discussion I had with an IDPA BoD member, shortly after the first Rule Book revision. We were discussing how the second book was much thicker than the first one, and he commented, "To start, there were a lot of things we thought were just common sense - that apparently aren't." Really, do we NEED someone to tell us, "You can use a 10-round magazine, or you can use a magazine the exact same size and length that could hold more ammo as long as you download it to 10 rounds. When we say 'same capacity' all we mean is to always start each stage with the same, legal number of rounds in each mag"? No. Common sense

If it were that common to have the same understanding (sense), then questions as these would not be asked. Intent and interpretations would be unnecessary as all would be of the same mind. You don't need to add pages to a book for explanation, you merely publish it the first time language that prevents dual or multiple interpretation.

[Duane Thomas]

BTW...at least in MY real world experience. I never was worried about saving rounds for a "just in case". I wanted the fresh mag in the gun as fast as possible to keep rounds going down range.

Let's cool it with the "real fight versus match" stuff. It has no place here.

[Steve J]

How is loading a mag to induce a slide lock reload any different than shooting an extra round to get the same efect??

I have seen shooters do this on more than one occasion...

Just wondering how you make the determination on what the competitor did?

At least in a sanctioned match (the ones I shoot), you mark your magazine capacity on each score sheet. The main score keeper checks to make sure they are the same for every stage. And the SO counts the rounds fired. If you slide lock early or late, say after 9, 10 or 12 rounds with 10 marked on your score sheet, you get a procedural. If the there is a trend over multiple stages, you are either dumb or deserving of a harsher penalty.

Edited to fix what Jim pointed out below. I was thinking with my feeble CDP mind.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Steve J

[Punkin Chunker]

How is loading a mag to induce a slide lock reload any different than shooting an extra round to get the same efect??

I have seen shooters do this on more than one occasion...

Just wondering how you make the determination on what the competitor did?

. . . If you slide lock early or late, say after 9 or 11 rounds with 10 marked on your score sheet, you get a procedural. If the there is a trend over multiple stages, you are either dumb or deserving of a harsher penalty.

You make some interesting points. In your experience, from an SO standpoint --

How far would you let it go before stepping it up to FTDR?

Is there any round-count management (as SK described) that would draw an FTDR on the first happening?

And back to SK's question -- how do you make the determination?

[Jim Watson]

If you slide lock early or late, say after 9 or 11 rounds with 10 marked on your score sheet, you get a procedural.

Strange, around here if you have declared 10 round capacity, you must slide lock at 11 shots. You know, the 10+1 language.

[Steve J]

If you slide lock early or late, say after 9 or 11 rounds with 10 marked on your score sheet, you get a procedural.

Strange, around here if you have declared 10 round capacity, you must slide lock at 11 shots. You know, the 10+1 language.

I just knew someone would point that out. Naturally, after your magazine capacity +1 for the first lock back. Being a diehard CDP shooter we can have a second slide lock.

[PEC-Memphis]

For ESP and SSP, you only need two mags. 10 + 10 = 20, max round count is 18. It's only the CDP guys who end up short going for the second mag on their belts (9 + 8 = 17).

Actually, the maximum round count in ESP and SSP for two magazines is 10 +10 +1 = 21. If you want to play with only two magazines, you can - but it may not work out for you.

Take the case where you are shooting on the move, you may need to make a RWR before you leave cover so that you are not exposed with an empty firearm - and have to return to cover for a SLR.

Or, not all CoFs start with divsion capacity - say the CoF is eighteen (18) shots but the load is 6/6/F - if you only have two magazines you come up a bit short (you are then automatically three (3) seconds down in points with probably some FTNs thown in for good measure, plus a procedural for not enough rounds fired for another three (3) seconds)

Or, you have a malfunction (like a double feed) - the rules do not require retention of a loaded magazine during a malfunction - dropping the magazine may be the fastest way to clear the malfunction - but if you don't have another....

Or, the case where the pistol is a SSP/ESP, but holds less than nine (9) rounds in the magazine - like a Kahr PM9 and others....

[Shawn Knight]

Or, not all CoFs start with divsion capacity - say the CoF is eighteen (18) shots but the load is 6/6/F - if you only have two magazines you come up a bit short (you are then automatically three (3) seconds down in points with probably some FTNs thown in for good measure, plus a procedural for not enough rounds fired for another three (3) seconds)

Or, you have a malfunction (like a double feed) - the rules do not require retention of a loaded magazine during a malfunction - dropping the magazine may be the fastest way to clear the malfunction - but if you don't have another....

Or, the case where the pistol is a SSP/ESP, but holds less than nine (9) rounds in the magazine - like a Kahr PM9 and others....

Or you reviewed the match format and understand that this is a game and you went out and bought all the gear necessary for the sport.

All of these problems are shooter related. Not rule or Match format related.

Come to the line ready to shoot the COF. Anything else is an excuse for poor preparation.