Things I noticed at KY Sate 3 Gun Match

[Bryan 45]

From what I understand (very limited) is that if the target is totally disappearing then there is no since to shoot at it for time plus. If you hit it great but that is time added to take the shot. If you don't hit it then it has no penalty. Why waste the shot or time.

I've slept since, but I believe the way we handled it at BRM3G was the shooter had to engage the disappearing target, even if had already disappeared, otherwise a failure to engage penalty (10 or 15 seconds?) was applied. They also got the miss of course.

It does seem a little funny just firing at where a target USE TO BE, but it kept shooters from just bypassing the disappearing targets.

I know that's how we did it at Owensboro last October for their local match. My Benelli mysteriously ran dry when a flipper clay was in the air. After I reloaded, I put one over the downed popper, so I was only assessed the miss.

[philg80]

From what I understand (very limited) is that if the target is totally disappearing then there is no since to shoot at it for time plus. If you hit it great but that is time added to take the shot. If you don't hit it then it has no penalty. Why waste the shot or time.

I've slept since, but I believe the way we handled it at BRM3G was the shooter had to engage the disappearing target, even if had already disappeared, otherwise a failure to engage penalty (10 or 15 seconds?) was applied. They also got the miss of course.

It does seem a little funny just firing at where a target USE TO BE, but it kept shooters from just bypassing the disappearing targets.

I know that's how we did it at Owensboro last October for their local match. My Benelli mysteriously ran dry when a flipper clay was in the air. After I reloaded, I put one over the downed popper, so I was only assessed the miss.

Under USPSA you should NOT have been given a miss or any procedural for not engaging. It is a disappearing target. You did get bonu points for HITTING it though. Last year was traditional hit factor scoring.

Edited June 1, 2009 by philg80

[steel1212]

From what I understand (very limited) is that if the target is totally disappearing then there is no since to shoot at it for time plus. If you hit it great but that is time added to take the shot. If you don't hit it then it has no penalty. Why waste the shot or time.

I've slept since, but I believe the way we handled it at BRM3G was the shooter had to engage the disappearing target, even if had already disappeared, otherwise a failure to engage penalty (10 or 15 seconds?) was applied. They also got the miss of course.

It does seem a little funny just firing at where a target USE TO BE, but it kept shooters from just bypassing the disappearing targets.

I know that's how we did it at Owensboro last October for their local match. My Benelli mysteriously ran dry when a flipper clay was in the air. After I reloaded, I put one over the downed popper, so I was only assessed the miss.

Under USPSA you should NOT have been given a miss or any procedural for not engaging. It is a disappearing target. You did get bonu points for HITTING it though. Last year was traditional hit factor scoring.

How can you have bonus points in a match that is scored on nothing but time? Are you going to subtract time for hitting the disappearing target? In that case how much? If its 5 seconds and it takes me almost that long to setup and shoot it then get ready for the next shot then what is the point? If its 10 seconds then yeah your making it worth it but you had better make the target worth 10 seconds of difficulty as well.

[RiggerJJ]

At most "outlaw" matches recently, flipped/flying clays are scored as;

Must be engaged while visable, or FTE is assesed, and it nets a total of 15 seconds penalty if it is not engaged (5 for the FTE, 10 for the miss).

IF its engaged while visable, some matches put the miss penalty at 5 seconds, some still 10 seconds for flipped/flying clays.

I'm not sure how USPSA Time Plus scoring deals with them...

jj

[Bryan 45]

Phil, the October match was not a USPSA level I match, it was just for fun. We were using whatever rules Gary wanted us to use.

[MikeFoley]

There was a cross-sectional group of 3gunners working through the NRA trying to find enough common ground to establish some consistent rules that everyone could live with. There are folks on this forum who were on that team. As last I heard, there were too many hold-outs to get this done. The guys who run these matches, and do so very consistently from year to year see no reason why they should change their match at all.

thats not at all true. most of the "outlaw" rule sets have a common beginning, the IMGA rules, then individual matches evolved over the years from there. The NRA 3 Gun comittee members all knew that a true overall common set of rules would be near impossible to agree upon, and so did the NRA. The notion of a common rule set wasn't even realisticaly discussed. The comittee decided to group all common parts of their rules to a "generic" rule set, then add all deviations to an "options" list, giving new MDs the ability to tailor their own unique set of rules.

The main point of NRA involvment is to include our "black" guns under the NRA umbrella as sporting firearms. so it just added several thousand (several hundred thousand?) firearms and lots and lots of firearm owners to the numbers game of politics. As you may have seen, several "outlaw" matches now have the NRA Competition logo and backing. What will you as a competitor see with NRA involvement? little or no change...

Read each matches' set of rules carefully before you attend as there are some differences, and join the NRA.

jj

Thanks for clearing that up.

[MikeFoley]

There was a cross-sectional group of 3gunners working through the NRA trying to find enough common ground to establish some consistent rules that everyone could live with. There are folks on this forum who were on that team. As last I heard, there were too many hold-outs to get this done. The guys who run these matches, and do so very consistently from year to year see no reason why they should change their match at all.

thats not at all true. most of the "outlaw" rule sets have a common beginning, the IMGA rules, then individual matches evolved over the years from there. The NRA 3 Gun comittee members all knew that a true overall common set of rules would be near impossible to agree upon, and so did the NRA. The notion of a common rule set wasn't even realisticaly discussed. The comittee decided to group all common parts of their rules to a "generic" rule set, then add all deviations to an "options" list, giving new MDs the ability to tailor their own unique set of rules.

The main point of NRA involvment is to include our "black" guns under the NRA umbrella as sporting firearms. so it just added several thousand (several hundred thousand?) firearms and lots and lots of firearm owners to the numbers game of politics. As you may have seen, several "outlaw" matches now have the NRA Competition logo and backing. What will you as a competitor see with NRA involvement? little or no change...

Read each matches' set of rules carefully before you attend as there are some differences, and join the NRA.

jj

Thanks for clearing that up.

[dvc40jim]

Two thumbs up for the Time Plus scoring. Much faster and far easier to track.

Great Job Guys!!!

I can't wait to see what next years event brings!

[philg80]

Phil, the October match was not a USPSA level I match, it was just for fun. We were using whatever rules Gary wanted us to use.

I was talking about last years KY State Match when referring to bonus for hitting diappearing targets.

[philg80]

Gary should have stuck to his stage designs and descriptions based on the posted multigun rules for frangible targets......the Range Master is who had a fit for it to be changed. I care neither way. I would have shot it either way. For those that wanted to shoot the shotgun stage in the woods, as intended, will be in luck since Gary is planning on setting it up as a side match at one of our pistol events. The rules below are straight out of the USPSA Multi Gun Rules for 2009 based upon the time plus scoring rules.

9.1.5 Failure to engage a frangible, knockdown or swinging style target will result in a 15 second penalty. (10 seconds for not making the hit and 5 seconds TNE.)

9.1.6 Engaging a frangible, knockdown or swinging style target but not breaking it (one BB hole is a break), knocking it down or causing the target to react will result in a 10 second penalty per target. R.O. may call hits.

[LChico]

I think next year he is going to go all outlaw rules.

What would this entail? Are there set outlaw rules?

There are many forms of rules labeled outlaw. Mostly this refers to scoring sanctioned only by each match, not by a governing body like USPSA. These rules tend to vary based on geography, but tend to have some common threads. There was a cross-sectional group of 3gunners working through the NRA trying to find enough common ground to establish some consistent rules that everyone could live with. There are folks on this forum who were on that team. As last I heard, there were too many hold-outs to get this done. The guys who run these matches, and do so very consistently from year to year see no reason why they should change their match at all.

The best advice I can give you, study the match rules for the specific outlaw match you are attending. Look for differences in scoring and equipment from what you are used to.

I personally know that the non-USPSA matches seem to be the most attended and hard to get in, so these guys are putting on great matches. I like the control that USPSA rules provides since I shoot USPSA pistol matches all year, I don't have to learn anything new. Most USPSA shooters like to stay within those rules. A lot of outlaw only 3Gunners seldom shoot any USPSA matches, which is why you see C class shooters win 3Gun matches from time to time. Nothing wrong with this, just the way it is.

Almost every shooter at the "outlaw" 3 gun matches I have worked are USPSA members. There is a bit of crossover too from IDPA. They tend to shoot any 3 gun match that comes along - USPSA, Time only, Time Plus or Horner Scoring. They don't care, they just love 3 gun. The reason you see A or B class shooters (pistol only classification) winning 3 gun matches, is because they whole idea is to reward the shooters with the best skill with 3 weapons. A B class pistol shooter may be a world class rifleman or shotgunner. If they divide practice time among 3 firearms, it makes sense that they might not be the top pistol guy.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

[Chris Conley]

+1000 to Linda. If I have the time and able to attend I really don't care what the rules are. I'm just happy to be there and have the time to shoot a match. I think regardless of the rule snafu it was still a challenging match and it sure was good to see some old friends again. Including you AP3.

Chris C.