Beretta 92FS Lock-Block

[PB92]

Beretta is curently on the 3 gen locking blocks, and thats where it will stay. The current locking block has been engineered as far as it can. A new locking block will wear into the slide (I dont need to say this but I will, providing the slide is NOT mangled/cracked, etc, but we are discussing a usable slide on a working gun here) as any part will when replaced. Been doing it for years, as the DoD has. I have talked with Beretta Italy engineers, Beretta USA engineers (actually face to face with these guys), talked more times then I can count with David Sams (google him, you will find out who he is), David Olhasso, Ernest Langdon......the list goes on.

Without intending to cast aspersions on your experience or the conversations/depth of conversations that you've had with the people you've discussed, here's the information Todd Green posted in www.m4carbine.net some time back:

"...note that it may not be as simple as just dropping a new block into the gun. You need to make sure the locking block is mating evenly with both shoulders in the slide. Otherwise, you accellerate wear on the block. That's why you'll see a .mil gun go 10K before it breaks a block, then 5k on the second block, then 2k, then 1k...and people blame the gun. It's not the gun. It's the armorer who is failing to follow proper protocol."

I'm not a gunsmith, but this intuitively makes sense to me. You might want to run it specifically by some of the people you've discussed (and I know who David Sams is, but thanks for proffering the Google suggestion).

Hey, I'm not the enemy here. Take the information for what it's worth.

Best, Jon

I understand Jon, its just a discussion. What I'm trying to convey is that a guns slide/frame will develope by operation a "wear signature". Its like if the front end on your car makes your tires wear on the outside edges, then you put a new set of tires on, and you know what happens. The "wear signature" of the frontend will in fact cause the new tires to "wear in" and will have a wear profile just like the old tires. To say "lets fit the new tire to the old frontend and put some wear marks on them", like "fitting a new locking block to an old frame/slide" is not #1- Practicle, #2- Accomplishing anything but labor unessarily. #3- Going to make the new locking block last any longer or shorter.

Where these people come up with these concepts/ideas the world may never know. I dont work/shoot/build/customize any other pistol but Beretta's. I dont know a little about every pistol, but a lot about Beretta's. My carry pistol is a 92SBC, built in Beretta Italy in 1982. It has over 150K rounds through it on the orig 1 gen locking block (square corners). I only replaced it with a 3rd gen LB (radiused corners) because I hard chromed the piatol. I put the new LB in, test fired with my carry ammo, and it runs like a dream. That was 3 years ago.

One of the requirements of the DoD back in the early 80's for the new military pistols trials was that the pistol OS submitted must be capable of being field stripped, all the parts put into seperate baskets, cleaned, the pistols re-assembled using the parts at random. And work. The Beretta 92 passed that and many more requirements. There were 85 requirements for the XM9 pistol trials.

>Bob

[RePete]

Been smithing Beretta's for almost 20 years, and shooting them in competition. Never had to "fit" a new locking block to a used slide.

I'd suggest that it might be worthwhile to research it on www.m4carbine.net-look for ToddG posts, or you might want to contact Todd directly at www.pistol-training.com. According to Todd, merely replacing a locking block will work, but unless you take into account the slide wear/eccentric slide wear induced by the previous locking block, your new locking block will have a significantly reduced lifespan.

Best, Jon

When I took the Beretta Armourers course over 6 years ago, we were told to examine the lugs carefully for cracks and replace as necessary, no fitting required.

I have replace 2 locking block on police duty firearms during that time, now they have gone to Glocks.

[PB92]

Been smithing Beretta's for almost 20 years, and shooting them in competition. Never had to "fit" a new locking block to a used slide.

I'd suggest that it might be worthwhile to research it on www.m4carbine.net-look for ToddG posts, or you might want to contact Todd directly at www.pistol-training.com. According to Todd, merely replacing a locking block will work, but unless you take into account the slide wear/eccentric slide wear induced by the previous locking block, your new locking block will have a significantly reduced lifespan.

Best, Jon

When I took the Beretta Armourers course over 6 years ago, we were told to examine the lugs carefully for cracks and replace as necessary, no fitting required.

I have replace 2 locking block on police duty firearms during that time, now they have gone to Glocks.

Thats the beauty of combat pistols, you do not need to "fit" new parts. Now, on a very tight pistol like my Open Beretta, the only "fitting" was the slide-to-frame fit where the A2 tool steel inserts are. The LB in it does not need fitting, even though it is super tight.

[Jmanchester]

I am looking for some input on the possible causes of a fractured lock block lug on a Beretta 92FS. This pistol is about 2-3 years old( It is used in weekly IDPA matches.) with about 10,000 rounds of mostly factory standard pressure ammo with mabe a few hundred factory +p rounds and never any +p+ or NATO rounds. I know 10,000 seems to be alot of rounds and have had part breakages with other pistol models with fewer rounds but I am curious as to any conditions ,other than just wear, that may be contributing to lug breakage.

Another question that I would like to throw in concerns replacing the broken lock block. I can get a block from Beretta with no problems but I am concerned with mechanical complications that I should watch for when installing a new unworn part into a worn mechinism.

Any input on this matter will be appreciated.

Thanks !!

Those darn lock-blocks can go out at any time. I got a hold of a few spares from a ex marine who use to work a booth at my local gun show. I could beat his pricing, free. Lol I have around 45,000 rds through my beretta and have gone through 4 or 5 lock-blocks. I have learned to fit them into the gun myself. I could help you replace it if you are in the Chicago or Virgina area. Let me know.

Sincerely,

Jman^2

[rvb]

I have around 45,000 rds through my beretta and have gone through 4 or 5 lock-blocks.

Holy crap.

I sure hope those are the original design locking blocks. Averaging ~10k per blocks SUCKS.

I've replaced a couple of blocks on mine and other's guns. Never did any fitting on them. And they lasted MUCH longer than that (that I know of, none have broken since). My practice gun went in excess of 120k after dropping in a new block. It was still going when the lugs on the barrel began to shear off.

If those are first-gen blocks, personally I wouldn't care if they were free. I'd toss 'em and pony up the $35 for a new-design block and gain a ton of confidence in your pistol, imo.

-rvb

[PB92]

Couple years ago when I had a conversation with a Beretta Italy factory gunsmith, he said the LB's need to be kept lubrucated. In another words Beretta's like it wet. Any pistol not just Beretta's will endure increased frictional forces running them with less then required lubricant. You would not start your car with no oil in the oil pan, would you? Thats the idea.

As Ryan said, my CCW 92SBC went 150K, when I had it hard chromed I put in a 3rd gen LB, not because it needed it, becuase I wanted it.

>Bob

Edited August 9, 2010 by PB92

[ShipWreck]

I know this is an older thread. However, one shoudl pay attention to spring changes. The recoil spring is suggested to be changed every 5k rounds.

I changed out one on my carry 92 at 4k. It was significantly shorter, so I thought "why not." The trigger return spring should also be changed around 5k. I switched mine out at 4k too, just to be consistent with the spring changes.

[COMATZD]

This is still an interesting issue to me. I bought my 92FS back in '89, its had at least 125k thru it with no apparent issues. I sometimes wonder if it will just explode into small pieces when it finally gives up

[rvb]

This is still an interesting issue to me. I bought my 92FS back in '89, its had at least 125k thru it with no apparent issues. I sometimes wonder if it will just explode into small pieces when it finally gives up

here is what happened to my circa 1991 vintage police trade-in with similar approx round count on it....

http://ingunowners.com/forums/handguns/78818-busted_barrel_beretta_92_a.html

(frame damage updates on pg 3).

-rvb

[ShipWreck]

This is still an interesting issue to me. I bought my 92FS back in '89, its had at least 125k thru it with no apparent issues. I sometimes wonder if it will just explode into small pieces when it finally gives up

here is what happened to my circa 1991 vintage police trade-in with similar approx round count on it....

http://ingunowners.com/forums/handguns/78818-busted_barrel_beretta_92_a.html

(frame damage updates on pg 3).

-rvb

Cool link. Interesting read

[JonInWA]

The recommended replacement intervals for the recoil and trigger return spring are every 5K rounds, but regarding the triggerspring, I'd add an important caveat-it's every 5K triggerpulls; dryfire triggerpulls count towards the total. My 1996-production 92D's trigger return spring broke at around the 2K round count, but when I factored in dryfiring, the triggerpull count was MUCH higher.

In discussing this with a BUSA rep, I found out that Beretta significantly strengthened the 92-series trigger return spring around 8 years ago, although the recommended replacement interval is still every 5K rounds/triggerpulls.

Wolff Gunsprings, at the behest of the Border Patrol, who encountered similar triggerspring issues (with their previously issued 96D Brigadiers), developed what they call their 92 Series Trigger Conversion Unit (TCU), which is a pretty ingenious coil spring set-up. I used their reduced-power unit upon their recommendation, which has performed flawlessly to date. My 92D is used for both carry and IDPA competitions, and I have much more faith with the TCU in place. Wolff has more details about this set-up, its testing and projected longevity on their website,

http://www.gunsprings.com/Semi-Auto%20Pistols/BERETTA/92,%2096,%20AND%20CENTURION/cID1/mID2/dID36

An interesting thing with the Beretta 92 is that if the trigger return spring breaks, the gun is still functional, as the triggerbar spring actually supplies the necessary propulsive force for ignition; the trigger then will need to be mechanically pushed foward to engage the triggerbar spring for the next shot.

Supposedly a broken trigger return spring could simply be removed, flipped around, and re-installed, but this depended upon where the spring broke; mine broke in the middle, which rendered the spring totally inoperable.

While perhaps a bit of overkill, I also replace my triggerbar and slide release springs at the 5K interval as well, with Wolff replacements (their slide release spring also has a longer end, making it easier to install).

I've gone to Trausch TJ92 grips, which I've found significantly slim down the receiver and appreciably improve the handling characteristics of the 92.

Best, Jon

Here's a thread I initiated on the www.berettaforum.net regarding the Trausch grips:

http://berettaforum.net/vb/showthread.php?t=72239

Edited July 27, 2011 by JonInWA

[Doc Maker]

I broke my block a week and a half ago. There was a crack on the wings and that resulted in the slide torquing to the left a bit. Gouging the frame slightly and bending the slide catch. However, I have the original trigger spring in there now with 15k+ rounds and it seems to be in the sweet spot. I'll be swapping the springs all around next month, when the summer shooting season winds down.

[JonInWA]

Doc, that locking block looks to me to be a "Gen 1" block, without the radiused wings. What's the year of production of your 92 (and I'm assuming that it's the original block)?

Best, Jon

[Doc Maker]

You are correct Sir,

That is the original block from a 1988 safe queen that I bought, from an estate sale, last November. Once I got ahold of it, I proceeded to take it from zero to sixty, shooting USPSA. (almost to B class...)

[PB92]

Yes, thats what I thought when I looked at Doc's cracked LB. I have a pic somewhere of my 92SBC's LB with 150k on it. If I find it I'll post it.

[bountyhunter]

The original qual of the M9 (Beretta 92) in the Army saw MTBF numbers (average life to significant failure) of about 30k rounds. That was with the original locking blocks. I know the later blocks were beefed up and had the offending "corner" radiused to make the crack propogation less likely, but they still crack sometimes.

10k is pretty quick for a block to fail, even the old style.

I have never heard that new blocks had to be fitted, but I suppose it's possible it's better if they are. I suspect it would be better to "square up" the wear surfaces on the old parts and not deform the new parts to match the wear on them.

[Carlos]

I worked at an indoor shooting range in the mid 90's, and we had a variety of guns for rent, and at the time the 92F was the one everyone wanted to rent because the military had just adopted it as their standard sidearm, well, as i recall, ours never went past about 3000, maybe 3500 rds on the outside without breaking or cracking a locking lug, the first couple trips back to Beretta were fine, then they got wind that we were an indoor range and it was a rental and they got testy, said things like' it wasnt meant to go that many rounds' and finally refused to fix it....so we stopped renting it, btw...same time frame we had a Glock 17 that went 60,000 rounds in 6 months, only borke a trigger return spring which cost us 2 dollars and 2 minutes to replace...

the other thing that used to go on the 92F's was the trigger return spring

in reading the othr posts i guess they have made strides in trying to correct the locking block failure problem, least the rounds between failure are more it sounds like....

I also worked at a gun shop part time 2003-2007 & our Berettas always cracked blocks @ under 10K rounds. These were rentals so the rule was: OUR GUNS = OUR AMMO ONLY!!! All of it was low powered factory ammo.

The block is the weak link in the Beretta system.

[ShipWreck]

I worked at an indoor shooting range in the mid 90's, and we had a variety of guns for rent, and at the time the 92F was the one everyone wanted to rent because the military had just adopted it as their standard sidearm, well, as i recall, ours never went past about 3000, maybe 3500 rds on the outside without breaking or cracking a locking lug, the first couple trips back to Beretta were fine, then they got wind that we were an indoor range and it was a rental and they got testy, said things like' it wasnt meant to go that many rounds' and finally refused to fix it....so we stopped renting it, btw...same time frame we had a Glock 17 that went 60,000 rounds in 6 months, only borke a trigger return spring which cost us 2 dollars and 2 minutes to replace...

the other thing that used to go on the 92F's was the trigger return spring

in reading the othr posts i guess they have made strides in trying to correct the locking block failure problem, least the rounds between failure are more it sounds like....

I also worked at a gun shop part time 2003-2007 & our Berettas always cracked blocks @ under 10K rounds. These were rentals so the rule was: OUR GUNS = OUR AMMO ONLY!!! All of it was low powered factory ammo.

The block is the weak link in the Beretta system.

But was the recoil spring ever changed at 3-5k?

The range here rents guns and requires you to use their ammo. But many people rent their guns and buy 1 box. Then, they use some more of their own ammo. So, the range never really does have an accurate count of rounds fired thru any of their guns (and, the one here doesn't seem to track that info anyway)

[Ben Stoeger]

I have yet to break a block. I have 115000 rounds on one. I don't understand all these reports of broken blocks. I am an abusive a_-hole to my guns and can't break them.

[mpeltier]

The new improved ones do indeed fail on ocasion. My 3 yr old duty 92FS sheared a lug of the locking block in training this past april. I had a lengthy conversation with our armeror who said it happens from time to time. No fitting required, mine was back in action in about 15 minutes. Shoots better groups now to. None of the ones we've had fail at work have anywhere near 10,000 rds thru them.